Friday, February 2, 2018

Early Mormon history: an important paradigm shift - Part 2


In the first installment of this series (link), I delineated "three primary explanations/interpretations of the historical period under investigation". This post will open with the 'Supernatural B' explanation.
One of the earliest, published examples of 'Supernatural B' came from the pen of a close relative of Joseph Smith Jr., his uncle Jesse Smith, the eldest brother of Joseph Smith Sr. We learn from George A. Smith, a cousin of Joseph Smith Jr., that letters from Joseph Smith Sr. and Joseph Smith Jr., began to be written and sent to close family members (e.g. Asael Smith, Jesse Smith,  John Smith), in the fall of 1828, promoting Joseph Smith Juniors recent supernatural experiences—e.g. the discovery of the 'gold plates', the translation work, and angelic visitations. We learn from the following letter penned by Jesse Smith that Hyrum Smith was also sending letters to close family members. The entire letter is provided below. I am using the Joseph Smith Papers online edition, and have included a few of their editorial additions. The hand written copy, and fully edited version can be accessed online HERE.

Letter, Jesse Smith to Hyrum Smith • 17 June 1829
Stockholm June 17th 1829
Mr. Hiram Smith

Once as I thot my promising Nephew, You wrote to my Father long ago, that after struggling thro various scenes of adversity, you and your family, you had at last been taught the very salutary lesson that the God that made the heavens and the earth w[o]uld at onc[e] give success to your endeavours, this if true, is very well, exactly as it should be— but— alas what is man when left to his own way, he makes his own gods, if a golden calf, he falls down and worship’s before it, and says this is my god which brought me out of the land of Vermont — if it be a gold book discovered by the necromancy of infidelity, & dug from the mines of atheism, he writes that the Angel of the Lord has revealed to him the hidden treasures of wisdom & knowledge, even divine revelation, which has lain in the bowels of the earth for thousands of years is at last made known to him, he says he has eyes to see things that are not, and then has the audacity to say they are; And this Angel of the Lord (Devil it should be) has put me in possession of great wealth, gold and silver and precious stones so that I shall have the dominion in all the land of Palmyra.—
In a subsequent letter you write that you learn from your Grandfather’s letter that uncle Jesse thinks you are carrying on a work of deception, in this he and you are right, Uncle Jesse did, and still does think the whole pretended discovery, not a very deep, but a very clear and foolish deception, a very great wickedness, unpardonable, unless you are shielded by your ignorance. Again you say, if you are decieved God is your deciever, Blasphemous wretch— how dare you utter such a sentence, how dare you harbor such a thot— aye, you never did think so, but being hardened in iniquity, you made use of the holy name of Jehovah! for what, why to cover your nefarious designs & impose on the credulity of your Grandfather, one of the oldest men on the earth,
Blackness of darkness! [p. 59]

You say you have God for a witness— to prove the truth of what you write miserable creature, not to say perjured villain, how dare you thus trifle, in taking the name of God in vain, nay far worse than vain— that God with whom you thus trifle, is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity he cannot look on sin with any degree of approbation or complacency it is true he passeth by iniquity transgression and sin in his redeemed ones, he sees their shield, and for his sake recieves them to favour, but to such as make lead books, and declare to the world that they are of the most fine gold, calling on the great & dreadful name of the most High to witness the truth of their assertions, He says “depart from me ye that work iniquity,” and again “these shall go away into everlasting punishment, they shall be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” these are the angels that tell where to find gold books.——
Your Grandfather is sorely disappointed he would not have listened a moment to your foolery, had he been forty years younger, he would have discovered barefaced falsehood in every line of your statement, nor would he as it is, but they say there must be one fool in the play, your good, pious & methodistical uncle Asahel induced his father to give credit to your tale of nonsense, your abominable wickedness.— but now the poor old man just dropping into the grave is in tears day and night as David, mourning as did David over Absolam, who fell in rebellion against God & man, my poor old father is in deep mourning, not for his younger son, he sleeps in the dust, his ashes are not disturbed by your horrible deeds, he was taken from this evil, he mourns for Joe & his numerous family, not because wild beasts have torn him in pieces, but because he has destroyed himself & associated so much with thieves murderers etc etc
Your father would not be implicated in this place, but for the message he sent by the hands of a fool to my brother Saml [Smith] this fellow says that you and your father are in this business very deep the fellow also believes all to be a fact, this to be sure, for no one unless predisposed to believe a lie would have heard a syllable from either of you on the subject, he says your father has a wand or rod like Jannes & Jambres who withstood Moses in Egypt— that he can tell the distance from India to Ethiopia or another fool story, many other things alike ridiculous.
You state your Father cannot write by reason of a nervous affection this is a poor excuse, worse than none, he can dictate to others and [p. 60]

they can write, If he knows not what to write, he can get your Brother’s spectacles he would then be as able to dictate a letter, as Joe is to decypher hieroglyphics, if more should be wanting he can employ the same scoundrel of a scribe, and then not only the matter but manner and style would be correct.
My compliments to your Father and Mother, tell them I wish them to review through years that are past, and say if they have done well in not writing to me these many years, tell them the time has been when they were glad to see me, but I am suspicious that the length of time since we last parted, has in some measure obliterated me from their memory, so that they would not now be pleased to recieve a visit from me, If they will write me that I may know their affairs and how they do, I will give them a history of the family concern &c
I write this at the request of my Father not for your sake you have not written to me, the story is that the gold book proved to be lead, that the Authority have taken it & Joe is under bonds to appear before his betters, so let it be.
Jesse Smith.
Mr Hiram Smith.
Palmyra N.Y.
     Wayne County. [p. 61]


[Note: the entire letter, with slightly different editing, and important footnotes, was published back in 1996. See the first volume of Dan Vogel's valuable series, Early Mormon Documents, pages 551-554.]

We learn from the above letter that Jesse did not dispute Joseph had experienced angelic visitations, uncovered metal plates, and was working on a translation of those plates. His opposition concerned the source of Joseph's experiences. He relates some Biblical examples in his critique, and mentions Joseph Smith Senior's involvement in folk magic—i.e. his possession and use of, "a wand or rod like Jannes & Jambres".

Now, as related in my recent posts on Mormonism, it seems the LDS scholars who are promoting the new historical paradigm—e.g. Mark Ashurst-McGee, Richard Bushman, Gerrit Dirkmaat, Eric Eliason, Nicholas Frederick, Terryl Givens, Michael MacKay, Kerry Muhlestein—now accept as fact that Joseph Smith Jr. participated in various forms of 'folk magic'. But for many folk (including Mormons), any participation in 'magic' is considered problematic, given the overall negative appraisal of 'magic' in the Scriptures.

I am firmly convinced that any discussion concerning magic and the occult within a Christian context, must begin with what the Scriptures have to say on the topic. As noted in the previous post, back in the mid-1980s, the Mark Hofmann forgeries gave cause to a number of LDS scholars to reexamine Joseph Smith's involvement in magic/occult practices. One of the earliest published treatments on this subject that I read when I began my studies into Mormonism had the following to say:

There are a score or so of words in the Hebrew Bible that refer to practices or practitioners of magic (as is generally understood), falling roughly into categories of magic in general or sorcery, divination, and astrology (these categories, it should be pointed out, have been devised by modern exegetes, not by the Israelites themselves: in none of these lists are these types of magical practices explicitly divided). Roughly three-quarters of the occurrences of these words refer, explicitly or implicitly, to non-Israelite practitioners or activities. Indeed, some of these words are used exclusively of non-Israelites. The remainder of the occurrences refer to deviant Israelite practices or practitioners. In no instance that we have found are any of these used favorably of an Israelite practice. (Stephen D. Ricks and Daniel C. Peterson, “Joseph Smith and ‘Magic’: Methodological Reflections on the Use of a Term,” in Robert Millet, ed., “To Be Learned Is Good If . . . ” - 1987, p. 133 - bold emphasis mine.)

A number of Old Testament examples (plus some NT) are provided below:

Lev. 19:26 - Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

Lev. 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev. 20:6 - And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev. 20:27 - A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Num. 23:23 - Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!

Deut. 18:9-12 - When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Deut. 18:14 - For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

1 Sam. 15:23 - For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

1 Sa. 28:2-25 - Saul and the witch of Endor.

2 Kings 17:17 - And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

2 Kings 21:6 - And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

2 Kings 23:24 - Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

1 Chr. 10:13 - So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

2 Chr. 33:6 - And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Isa. 8:19, 20 - And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isa. 19:3 - And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Isa. 29:4 - And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Isa. 47:9-12 - But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.

Jer. 14:14 - Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer. 27:9 - Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:

Ezek. 12:24 - For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.

Ezek. 13:6, 7 - They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

Ezekiel 21:21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver.

Micah 3:5-7, 11 - Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God... The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

Micah 5:12 - And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:

When one turns to the New Testament, the negative view of magic/occult related practices continues; note the following:

Acts 8:9-11 - But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: o whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

Acts 13:6-8 - And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation ) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

Acts 16:16-18 - And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Acts 19:19 - Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Galatians 5:20 - Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Revelation 9:21 - Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 18:23 - And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:15 - For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

It sure seems to me than any unauthorized use of 'spiritual gifts' falls under God's condemnation, for the source is not from God. Not only is the Bible clear on this, but also the Book of Mormon, and D&C. One interesting example is found in D&C 28:11, wherein it is related that Hiram Page's use of a "[seer] stone" was "not of me", but rather of "Satan".

So, how do LDS scholars who are promoting the new historical paradigm defend their assumptions? Three methods are employed: one assigns Joseph's supposed participation in magic and occult practices to youthful folly; a second suggests that many other contemporary, professing 'Christians' also engaged in such practices; and the third, sees Joseph's earlier involvement in magic and occult practices as a progressive preparation for his future divine calling by God.

Note following from Mark Ashurst-McGee's thesis:

A multitude of divinatory methods have flourished in western civilization. By reading omens, or by carefully inspecting the stars, one could forecast the future or obtain information about the otherwise unknown matters of the present. Others have used divinatory instruments and techniques to obtain the information that eluded them when pursued through ordinary means. By casting lots one could shift the responsibility of making difficult decision over a supernatural entity—one with superior wisdom. By waiting for his forked rod to dip, a waterwitch could find a site to dig a well. Others have obtained supernatural visions, but not without the help of a speculum of some sort—whether it be a crystal ball, a magic mirror, or a pool of clear water. A number of aspiring prophets have made use of means and methods such as these to aid them in their spiritual journey.

Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of the Mormon faith, followed such a course. He began "exercising" the "gifts of the spirit" by using a divining rod. Later, he was able to obtain visions by using a seer stone. Then, in 1830, the newly organized Church of Christ accepted and "sustained" him as a "prophet." Joseph Smith's spiritual development through these successive modes of divination constitutes the primary study for this thesis. (Ibid., page 2.)

In this thesis, I will explore in detail the historical origins of this most fundamental aspect of Mormonism. I argue that Joseph Smith's prophethood and his revelations originated to some extent in less ecstatic modes of divination. Astrology, divining rods, and seer stones provided an historical background for Joseph's later revelations as well as did dreams, visions, angel visitations, and theophanies. I lay out a series of divinatory modes through which Joseph Smith progressed on his pathway to prophethood. (Ibid., page 6)

Keeping in mind that Mark Hoffman's forged documents were a major source of the foundational impulses that lie behind the direction which the contributors to the new LDS historical paradigm have taken, take note of what the then LDS apostle and First Counselor in the First Presidency (and future President/Prophet) had to say in General Conference:

As most of you know, in the last four or five years we have passed through an interesting episode in the history of the Church. There came into our hands two letters that were seized upon by the media when we announced them. They were trumpeted across much of the world as documents that would challenge the authenticity of the Church. In announcing them we stated that they really had nothing to do with the essentials of our history. But some few of little faith, who seemingly are always quick to believe the negative, accepted as fact the pronouncements and predictions of the media. I recall a letter from an individual who asked that his name be taken from the records of the Church because he could no longer believe in a church that had to do with an experience with a salamander.

Now, as you know, these letters, together with other documents, have been acknowledged by their forger to be total frauds and part of an evil and devious design which culminated in the murder of two individuals.

I have wondered what those whose faith was shaken have thought since the forger confessed to his evil work.

However, I hasten to add, the vast majority of Church members, all but a very few, paid little attention and went forward with their faithful service, living by a conviction firmly grounded in that knowledge which comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. They knew then and they know now that God watches over this work, that Jesus Christ is the head of this Church, that it is true, and that happiness and growth come of following its precepts and teachings.

Out of this earlier episode has now arisen another phenomenon. It is described as the writing of a “new history” of the Church as distinguished from the “old history.” It represents, among other things, an effort to ferret out every element of folk magic and the occult in the environment in which Joseph Smith lived to explain what he did and why.

I have no doubt there was folk magic practiced in those days. Without question there were superstitions and the superstitious. I suppose there was some of this in the days when the Savior walked the earth. There is even some in this age of so-called enlightenment. For instance, some hotels and business buildings skip the numbering of floor thirteen. Does this mean there is something wrong with the building? Of course not. Or with the builders? No.

Similarly, the fact that there were superstitions among the people in the days of Joseph Smith is no evidence whatever that the Church came of such superstition.

Joseph Smith himself wrote or dictated his history. It is his testimony of what occurred, and he sealed that testimony with his life. It is written in language clear and plain and unmistakable. From an ancient record he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. It is here for all to see and handle and read. Those who have read with faith and inquired in prayer have come to a certain knowledge that it is true. The present effort of trying to find some other explanation for the organization of the Church, for the origin of the Book of Mormon, and for the priesthood with its keys and powers will be similar to other anti-Mormon fads which have come and blossomed and faded. Truth will prevail. A knowledge of that truth comes by effort and study, yes. But it comes primarily as a gift from God to those who seek in faith. (Gordon B. Hinckley, “Lord, Increase Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 1987 - LINK)

Plenty of 'food for thought'...


Grace and peace,

David

8 comments:

TOm said...

David,
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I really do not know what to do with the idea that perhaps all that appears as beyond human/supernatural/unexplainable within Mormonism is a product of the adversary not God. I attempt to use my reason to determine if Mormonism comes from man, but when my reason indicates that it cannot come from man; I am left with two choices God or the Adversary. How will I adjudicate between these two?
I suppose one answer from the Supernatural B. crowd is, “See occult practices, know these are always and forever from the adversary and anti-God, and reject Mormonism.” No need to pray to God for truth. In fact if you have already missed this obvious truth, you need to know that the answers to your prayers also came from the adversary.
Well, I see problems in both halves of this apologetic.
First, I very much disagree that the Bible makes it clear that there are God things and magic things and it is obvious which is which. Robert’s list is good so I will just reproduce it:
That ought to be a dead giveaway to you that it is entirely relative to the person whether it is of Satan or of God. After all, the seer stone in Joseph's hat is divine, even if Hiram Page's is not. The same applies to the Mosaic Nehushtan fiery-serpent-talisman, which gives life when looked upon by the Israelites, and is also a holy type of Jesus (the antitype) who likewise gives life from the Cross, yet it is finally destroyed as evil in II Kings 18:4. So too with the contest of serpents between the magicians of Pharaoh and Moses & Aaron. Indeed, to add even more confusion, the serpent is fully Satanic elsewhere (Gen 3:13-15, Rev 12:7-9, 20:2). We likewise have Joseph who was sold into Egypt practicing lecanoscopy (divination/prophecy via a cup of water, Gen 44:2,5), the Israelite High Priest consulting Urim & Thummim. These procedures are used by other, neighboring cultures, yet are considered pagan in those instances.
What of the rods/staffs possessed by Moses & Aaron, which could turn into snakes, and which were used for other miracles (parting of the Reed Sea, water from a rock, etc.)? How is it that Orson Hyde used his rod to witch the location for his prayer of dedication of Palestine to the Gathering of the Jews in 1841, or Brigham used Oliver's rod to witch the location for the Salt Lake Temple July 28, 1847?

I think we see two things in the Bible. We see a real distinction between magic like things that come from God and magic like things that come from the adversary. And we see ancient tribalism. The magic things for the them must be bad and the magic things of the us must be good.

The other half that I should not believe God can answer prayers or I should assume that my prayers are not sincere also doesn’t work well for me. Unless I go full Calvinist, I cannot see an inability of me to seek God and find Him in the Bible. And if the Calvinist is correct, I will be saved or damned and I do not need to concern myself with this as I have ZERO influence or control. So, I think it only rational for me to attempt to adjudicated between Mormonism is from God or Mormonism is from the adversary by praying to know God’s will. So that is what I do/did.

And of course there are other tools to adjudicate, "by their fruits" is one that comes to mind.

Charity, TOm

David Waltz said...

Hi Tom,

Thanks much for taking the time to share some of your thoughts on the content of this thread. You wrote:

==I attempt to use my reason to determine if Mormonism comes from man, but when my reason indicates that it cannot come from man; I am left with two choices God or the Adversary. How will I adjudicate between these two?==

I have been asking myself the same question for just over 30 years now. Though for not as long, I ask the same question concerning the Qur'an and the Kitab-i-Iqan.

== I suppose one answer from the Supernatural B. crowd is, “See occult practices, know these are always and forever from the adversary and anti-God, and reject Mormonism.” No need to pray to God for truth. In fact if you have already missed this obvious truth, you need to know that the answers to your prayers also came from the adversary.
Well, I see problems in both halves of this apologetic.
First, I very much disagree that the Bible makes it clear that there are God things and magic things and it is obvious which is which.==

Two points; first, my take is a bit different in that I fully acknowledge that there are a number of practices in the Bible when used with God's approval/command are seen in a positive light, while the same practices when used without God's approval/command are seen in a negative light, becoming identified with occultic terminology. And second, some important LDS authorities and scholars have not been convinced that the 'new history' paradigm shift is accurate.

Now, with that said, I have a couple of questions for you: first, do you believe that the 'new history' paradigm shift is factual enough that it can no longer be denied? And second, if this is so, what is your view of magical/occult practices that do not have God's approval/command?


Grace and peace,

David

Steve said...

Tom and Dave,
I would be interested in hearing why you guys feel that Mormonism must have supernatural origins.

Thanks

David Waltz said...

Hi Steve,

Good question. My conclusion is derived from three major lines of evidences: first, all of the numerous naturalistic explanations that have been proposed over the last 180+ years have been debunked to the point that to adopt any of them requires a massive 'leap of faith'. Second, the Book of Mormon; after 30 years of study and reflection, I have come to believe that it was virtually impossible for Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to produced such a work within the relatively brief time frame (less than 3 months)—that all sides of the issue agree upon—via natural means alone. Third, the supernatural events that seem to have permeated the early years of the CoJCoLDS (see THIS BOOK, and THIS WEBSITE for examples).


Grace and peace,

David

TOm said...

David,
You asked:
Now, with that said, I have a couple of questions for you: first, do you believe that the 'new history' paradigm shift is factual enough that it can no longer be denied? And second, if this is so, what is your view of magical/occult practices that do not have God's approval/command?


My “new history paradigm” has distilled upon me a little differently. Some period of time ago there were folks who didn’t read books (and didn’t closely follow Ensign articles). They “knew” things that were not true. I remember reading through Todd Compton’s book in a LDS book store. This happened after 1996, but not much after. I remember thinking that this questions the practice of polygamy, but it must be part of LDS thought as it was in the LDS bookstore. I found out about Mountain Meadows online, but I do not remember being scandalized. Over the last 2 years, I have been a little surprised to discover that Richard Bushman the Patriarch for his Stake is part of the new history paradigm.

I think it most likely that there was a stone in a hat that was associated with the translation of the BOM.
As I read through the “Caul” stories in Ashurst-McGee’s Master thesis, I remember thinking this is pretty thin evidence and I doubt it was significant in Joseph or his families ideas concerning his calling.
I think things between these are true and false.

I want to believe the truth. The most important truth is where should I worship (and serve) and how should this impact my relationship with God. The strongest view of Mormonism I know includes a BOA production that is a problem, some magical thinking that I expect is part of the reality of Joseph Smith’s life (especially before 1830), a priesthood ban that I think was a product of racist ideas and Brigham Young who was a little more racist than your average 1850’s fellow, and polygamy that I believe was born of revelation but was both imperfectly practiced AND embellished in incorrect and negative ways by critics. This strongest view is combined with the BOM, the witnesses of the BOM, the practices of the church today, actions where power and supernatural power was spread rather than held only by Joseph, ideas “restored” that were prevalent in the Early Church, but not common in Joseph’s day (like deification), and other things. I think this produces a compelling case for both the divinity of the CoJCoLDS and the supernatural origins of the CoJCoLDS.
cont…

TOm said...

The question that I ask determine which data is most important. I left behind the idea that there is no God long ago, so the question is where and how does God want me to follow Him.

The “devil did it” makes sense with only a few truths. One would be a fairly strong “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.” Perhaps the devils purpose was to create a competitor for Catholic truth claims. Without the CoJCoLDS I think I would be Catholic. Another would be a radical anti-works gospel that is usually associated with strong Calvinism. Associated or not, this anti-works gospel damns most Catholics, most LDS, and most Protestants. Perhaps some LDS would have found the anti-works gospel without the CoJCoLDS and the devil was after this attack. But, producing a BOM that speaks about Christ as the BOM does is a pretty radical plan on the adversaries part.

Pope Francis disturbs me because the “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” paradigm is impacted by his teachings. I am trying to compare Best to Best, and perhaps the SSPX version of Catholicism and its rejection of the teachings of Pope Francis is the best, but I considered it quite a bit weaker than the Pope JPII or Pope Benedict Catholicism and it has not gotten stronger only the alternatives weaker.

And I still fall back on the idea that my attempts at sincere prayers must be able to help adjudicate between God and the adversary if God will allow the adversary to produce the BOM to lead me away from Him. In fact, if the BOM is from the devil, it seems clear to me that prayer to God is the ONLY way to adjudicate such a question. I want to me in a church with folks who do not read history, think about theology, and … because they are busy with life, busy with loving other, or just not intellectually curious (or capable). The gospel is for thinkers like David Waltz and simple folks who just believe IMO.

So, I think some of the New History is accurate and some probably is not. But, if the radically magical or the very little magical is true, I still must say that if God will allow the adversary to produce the BOM to lead me away from Him, prayer can be the only solution to which God desires me to resort. And the radically magical or very little magical does not convinced me that it SIMPLY must be the devil who produced the BOM.
Charity, TOm

TOm said...

Hello Steve,
I think I would mostly echo David’s response. I have spent a great deal of time weighing and sifting the Book of Mormon. I do not know what “horses” in the BOM were, but I find the answers that preserve a traditional view of the BOM to be available and reasonable. I think Nahom is remarkably at the right place and right time. There are numerous somewhat negative and somewhat positive evidences in the BOM, but I find the believers explanation for the negative reasonable and the rarely offered critics explanations for the positives to be inadequate. When I am done with this, the BOM is very positive evidence of the supernatural.
When I look at witness statements (the 8 and the 3) and other witnesses of various things, I find this to be compelling evidence that something supernatural happened and there were real plates of some sort.
I agree with numerous non-believers that Joseph Smith was sincere and was not some conscious huckster. I do not think the historical record aligns well with a conscious fraud theory. I do not think his experiences were the product of profound delusions. Believer and non-believer, friend and foe, often found him to be a reasonable fellow with a compelling narrative. So something supernatural happened to Joseph Smith that lead him to lead a church.
I think the above is similar to David’s answer, but it is what came to me.
Charity, TOm

David Waltz said...

Hi Tom,

Thanks much for taking the time to reply to my questions. You wrote:

==The “devil did it” makes sense with only a few truths. One would be a fairly strong “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.” Perhaps the devils purpose was to create a competitor for Catholic truth claims. Without the CoJCoLDS I think I would be Catholic. Another would be a radical anti-works gospel that is usually associated with strong Calvinism. Associated or not, this anti-works gospel damns most Catholics, most LDS, and most Protestants. Perhaps some LDS would have found the anti-works gospel without the CoJCoLDS and the devil was after this attack. But, producing a BOM that speaks about Christ as the BOM does is a pretty radical plan on the adversaries part. ==

Interesting take; my thoughts concerning the "devil did it" are much more pervasive than yours, and in a real sense reflect the position on this issue that is presented in the BoM. Note the following:

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. (1 Nephi 14)

As you well know, my quandary concerns the true identity of "the church of the Lamb of God".

== So, I think some of the New History is accurate and some probably is not. But, if the radically magical or the very little magical is true, I still must say that if God will allow the adversary to produce the BOM to lead me away from Him, prayer can be the only solution to which God desires me to resort. And the radically magical or very little magical does not convinced me that it SIMPLY must be the devil who produced the BOM.==

Understood. The following thoughts from Joseph Fielding Smith ring true to me:

Very few among us read too much; most of us read too little. The Lord has said: “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith.” [D&C 88:118; 109:7.]

We are expected to study and learn all we can by research and analysis. But there are limits to our learning abilities in the realms of reason and study. The things of God can be known only by the Spirit of God. We must gain knowledge by faith.

Men may search, they may study, they may learn, of course, a great many things; they may lay up a great fund of information, but they will never be able to come to the fulness of truth . . . unless they are guided by the Spirit of truth, the Holy Ghost, and keep the commandments of God. (Teachings of Presidents of the Church - Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 145, 146.)


Grace and peace,

David