In the first installment of this series (link), I delineated "three primary explanations/interpretations of the historical period under investigation". This post will open with the 'Supernatural B' explanation.
One of the earliest, published examples of 'Supernatural B' came from
the pen of a close relative of Joseph Smith Jr., his uncle Jesse Smith, the eldest
brother of Joseph Smith Sr. We learn from George A. Smith, a cousin of Joseph
Smith Jr., that letters from Joseph Smith Sr. and Joseph Smith Jr., began to be
written and sent to close family members (e.g. Asael Smith, Jesse Smith, John Smith), in the fall of 1828, promoting
Joseph Smith Juniors recent supernatural experiences—e.g. the discovery of the
'gold plates', the translation work, and angelic visitations. We learn from the
following letter penned by Jesse Smith that Hyrum Smith was also sending
letters to close family members. The entire letter is provided below. I am
using the Joseph Smith Papers online edition, and have included a few of
their editorial additions. The hand written copy, and fully edited version can
be accessed online HERE.
Letter, Jesse Smith to Hyrum Smith • 17 June 1829
Stockholm June
17th 1829
Mr. Hiram Smith
Once as I thot my
promising Nephew, You wrote to my Father long ago, that after
struggling thro various scenes of adversity, you and your family, you had at
last been taught the very salutary lesson that the God that made the
heavens and the earth w[o]uld at onc[e] give success to your endeavours,
this if true, is very well, exactly as it should be— but— alas what is man
when left to his own way, he makes his own gods, if a golden calf, he
falls down and worship’s before it, and says this is my god which
brought me out of the land of Vermont — if it be a gold book
discovered by the necromancy of infidelity, & dug from the mines of
atheism, he writes that the Angel of the Lord has revealed to him the
hidden treasures of wisdom & knowledge, even divine revelation, which
has lain in the bowels of the earth for thousands of years is at last made
known to him, he says he has eyes to see things that are not, and then has
the audacity to say they are; And this Angel of the Lord (Devil it
should be) has put me in possession of great wealth, gold and silver and
precious stones so that I shall have the dominion in all the land
of Palmyra.—
In a subsequent letter
you write that you learn from your Grandfather’s letter that uncle Jesse
thinks you are carrying on a work of deception, in this he and you are
right, Uncle Jesse did, and still does think the whole pretended
discovery, not a very deep, but a very clear and foolish deception, a very
great wickedness, unpardonable, unless you are shielded by your ignorance.
Again you say, if you are decieved God is your deciever, Blasphemous
wretch— how dare you utter such a sentence, how dare you harbor such a
thot— aye, you never did think so, but being hardened in iniquity, you
made use of the holy name of Jehovah! for what, why to cover your
nefarious designs & impose on the credulity of your Grandfather, one
of the oldest men on the earth,
Blackness of darkness!
[p. 59]
You say you have God for
a witness— to prove the truth of what you write miserable creature, not to say
perjured villain, how dare you thus trifle, in taking the name of God in vain,
nay far worse than vain— that God with whom you thus trifle, is of purer eyes
than to behold iniquity he cannot look on sin with any degree of approbation or
complacency it is true he passeth by iniquity transgression and sin in his
redeemed ones, he sees their shield, and for his sake recieves them to favour,
but to such as make lead books, and declare to the world that they are of the
most fine gold, calling on the great & dreadful name of the most High to
witness the truth of their assertions, He says “depart from me ye that work
iniquity,” and again “these shall go away into everlasting punishment, they
shall be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”
these are the angels that tell where to find gold books.——
Your Grandfather is
sorely disappointed he would not have listened a moment to your foolery, had he
been forty years younger, he would have discovered barefaced falsehood in every
line of your statement, nor would he as it is, but they say there must be one
fool in the play, your good, pious & methodistical uncle Asahel
induced his father to give credit to your tale of nonsense, your abominable
wickedness.— but now the poor old man just dropping into the grave is in tears
day and night as David, mourning as did David over Absolam, who fell in
rebellion against God & man, my poor old father is in deep mourning, not
for his younger son, he sleeps in the dust, his ashes are not disturbed by your
horrible deeds, he was taken from this evil, he mourns for Joe & his
numerous family, not because wild beasts have torn him in pieces, but because
he has destroyed himself & associated so much with thieves murderers etc
etc
Your father would
not be implicated in this place, but for the message he sent by the hands of a
fool to my brother Saml [Smith] this fellow says that you and your father
are in this business very deep the fellow also believes all to be a fact, this
to be sure, for no one unless predisposed to believe a lie would have heard a
syllable from either of you on the subject, he says your father has a wand
or rod like Jannes & Jambres who withstood Moses in Egypt— that he can tell
the distance from India to Ethiopia or another fool story, many other things
alike ridiculous.
You state
your Father cannot write by reason of a nervous affection this is a poor
excuse, worse than none, he can dictate to others and [p. 60]
they can write, If he knows not what to write, he
can get your Brother’s spectacles he would then be as able to dictate a letter,
as Joe is to decypher hieroglyphics, if more should be wanting he can employ
the same scoundrel of a scribe, and then not only the matter but manner and
style would be correct.
My compliments to
your Father and Mother, tell them I wish them to review through years
that are past, and say if they have done well in not writing to me these many
years, tell them the time has been when they were glad to see me, but I am
suspicious that the length of time since we last parted, has in some measure
obliterated me from their memory, so that they would not now be pleased to
recieve a visit from me, If they will write me that I may know their affairs
and how they do, I will give them a history of the family concern &c
I write this at the
request of my Father not for your sake you have not written to me, the story is
that the gold book proved to be lead, that the Authority have taken it &
Joe is under bonds to appear before his betters, so let it be.
Jesse Smith.
Mr Hiram Smith.
Palmyra N.Y.
Wayne County. [p. 61]
[Note:
the entire letter, with slightly different editing, and important footnotes,
was published back in 1996. See the first volume of Dan Vogel's valuable
series, Early Mormon Documents, pages 551-554.]
We
learn from the above letter that Jesse did not dispute Joseph had experienced
angelic visitations, uncovered metal plates, and was working on a translation
of those plates. His opposition concerned the source of Joseph's experiences.
He relates some Biblical examples in his critique, and mentions Joseph Smith Senior's involvement in folk magic—i.e. his possession and use of, "a wand or rod like Jannes
& Jambres".
Now,
as related in my recent posts on Mormonism, it seems the LDS scholars who are
promoting the new historical paradigm—e.g. Mark Ashurst-McGee, Richard Bushman,
Gerrit Dirkmaat, Eric Eliason, Nicholas Frederick, Terryl Givens, Michael
MacKay, Kerry Muhlestein—now accept as fact that Joseph Smith Jr. participated
in various forms of 'folk magic'. But for many folk (including Mormons), any
participation in 'magic' is considered problematic, given the overall negative
appraisal of 'magic' in the Scriptures.
I
am firmly convinced that any discussion concerning magic and the occult within
a Christian context, must begin with what the Scriptures have to say on the
topic. As noted in the previous post, back in the mid-1980s, the Mark Hofmann
forgeries gave cause to a number of LDS scholars to reexamine Joseph Smith's
involvement in magic/occult practices. One of the earliest published treatments
on this subject that I read when I began my studies into Mormonism had the
following to say:
There
are a score or so of words in the Hebrew Bible that refer to practices or
practitioners of magic (as is generally understood), falling roughly into
categories of magic in general or sorcery, divination, and astrology (these
categories, it should be pointed out, have been devised by modern exegetes, not
by the Israelites themselves: in none of these lists are these types of magical
practices explicitly divided). Roughly three-quarters of the occurrences of
these words refer, explicitly or implicitly, to non-Israelite practitioners or
activities. Indeed, some of these words are used exclusively of non-Israelites.
The remainder of the occurrences refer to deviant Israelite practices or
practitioners. In no instance that we have found are any of these used
favorably of an Israelite practice. (Stephen D. Ricks and Daniel C.
Peterson, “Joseph Smith and ‘Magic’: Methodological Reflections on the Use of a
Term,” in Robert Millet, ed., “To Be Learned Is Good If . . . ” -
1987, p. 133 - bold emphasis mine.)
A
number of Old Testament examples (plus some NT) are provided below:
Lev. 19:26 - Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye
use enchantment, nor observe times.
Lev. 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after
wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Lev. 20:6 - And the soul that
turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring
after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from
among his people.
Lev. 20:27 - A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard,
shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall
be upon them.
Num. 23:23 - Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is
there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be
said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!
Deut. 18:9-12 - When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee,
thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall
not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to
pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer
of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with
familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are
an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD
thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deut. 18:14 - For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers
of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not
suffered thee so to do.
1 Sam. 15:23 - For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is
as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD,
he hath also rejected thee from being king.
1 Sa. 28:2-25 - Saul and the witch of Endor.
2 Kings 17:17 - And they caused their
sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and
enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to
provoke him to anger.
2 Kings 21:6 - And he made his son
pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt
with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of
the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
2 Kings 23:24 - Moreover the workers
with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and
all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did
Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written
in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.
1 Chr. 10:13 - So Saul died for his
transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word
of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one
that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
2 Chr. 33:6 - And he caused his
children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he
observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a
familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the
LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Isa. 8:19, 20 - And when they shall
say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that
peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living
to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to
this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isa. 19:3 - And the spirit of
Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof:
and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have
familiar spirits, and to the wizards.
Isa. 29:4 - And thou shalt be
brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be
low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar
spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
Isa. 47:9-12 - But these two things
shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and
widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of
thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For
thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom
and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I
am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou
shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou
shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which
thou shalt not know. Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the
multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be
thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
Jer. 14:14 - Then the LORD said
unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I
commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision
and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jer. 27:9 - Therefore hearken not
ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your
enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not
serve the king of Babylon:
Ezek. 12:24 - For there shall be no
more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.
Ezek. 13:6, 7 - They have seen vanity
and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them:
and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have
ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas
ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
Ezekiel 21:21 For the king of Babylon
stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination:
he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the
liver.
Micah 3:5-7, 11 - Thus saith the LORD
concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth,
and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare
war against him.Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not
have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the
sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then
shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all
cover their lips; for there is no answer of God... The heads thereof
judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets
thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not
the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
Micah 5:12 - And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have
no more soothsayers:
When
one turns to the New Testament, the negative view of magic/occult related
practices continues; note the following:
Acts 8:9-11 - But there was a
certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and
bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: o
whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is
the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time
he had bewitched them with sorceries.
Acts 13:6-8 - And when they had
gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false
prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Which was with the deputy of
the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul,
and desired to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his
name by interpretation ) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from
the faith.
Acts 16:16-18 - And it came to pass,
as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination
met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed
Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high
God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But
Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of
Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Acts 19:19 - Many of them also
which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before
all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty
thousand pieces of silver.
Galatians 5:20 - Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies,
Revelation 9:21 - Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor
of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Revelation 18:23 - And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the
voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were
all nations deceived.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and
unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and
sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake
which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:15 - For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and
murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
It
sure seems to me than any unauthorized use of 'spiritual gifts' falls under
God's condemnation, for the source is not from God. Not only is the Bible clear
on this, but also the Book of Mormon, and D&C. One interesting example is
found in D&C 28:11, wherein it is related that Hiram Page's use of a
"[seer] stone" was "not of me", but rather of
"Satan".
So,
how do LDS scholars who are promoting the new historical paradigm defend their
assumptions? Three methods are employed: one assigns Joseph's supposed
participation in magic and occult practices to youthful folly; a second
suggests that many other contemporary, professing 'Christians' also engaged in
such practices; and the third, sees Joseph's earlier involvement in magic and
occult practices as a progressive preparation for his future divine calling by
God.
Note
following from
Mark Ashurst-McGee's thesis:
A
multitude of divinatory methods have flourished in western civilization. By
reading omens, or by carefully inspecting the stars, one could forecast the
future or obtain information about the otherwise unknown matters of the
present. Others have used divinatory instruments and techniques to obtain the
information that eluded them when pursued through ordinary means. By casting
lots one could shift the responsibility of making difficult decision over a
supernatural entity—one with superior wisdom. By waiting for his forked rod to
dip, a waterwitch could find a site to dig a well. Others have obtained
supernatural visions, but not without the help of a speculum of some
sort—whether it be a crystal ball, a magic mirror, or a pool of clear water. A
number of aspiring prophets have made use of means and methods such as these to
aid them in their spiritual journey.
Joseph
Smith, the founding prophet of the Mormon faith, followed such a course. He
began "exercising" the "gifts of the spirit" by using a
divining rod. Later, he was able to obtain visions by using a seer stone. Then,
in 1830, the newly organized Church of Christ accepted and
"sustained" him as a "prophet." Joseph Smith's spiritual
development through these successive modes of divination constitutes the primary
study for this thesis. (Ibid., page 2.)
In this thesis, I will
explore in detail the historical origins of this most fundamental aspect of
Mormonism. I argue that Joseph Smith's prophethood and his revelations
originated to some extent in less ecstatic modes of divination. Astrology,
divining rods, and seer stones provided an historical background for Joseph's
later revelations as well as did dreams, visions, angel visitations, and
theophanies. I lay out a series of divinatory modes through which Joseph Smith
progressed on his pathway to prophethood. (Ibid., page 6)
Keeping
in mind that Mark Hoffman's forged documents were a major source of the
foundational impulses that lie behind the direction which the contributors to
the new LDS historical paradigm have taken, take note of what the then LDS
apostle and First Counselor in the First Presidency (and future
President/Prophet) had to say in General Conference:
As most of you know, in
the last four or five years we have passed through an interesting episode in
the history of the Church. There came into our hands two letters that were
seized upon by the media when we announced them. They were trumpeted across
much of the world as documents that would challenge the authenticity of the
Church. In announcing them we stated that they really had nothing to do with
the essentials of our history. But some few of little faith, who seemingly are
always quick to believe the negative, accepted as fact the pronouncements and
predictions of the media. I recall a letter from an individual who asked that
his name be taken from the records of the Church because he could no longer
believe in a church that had to do with an experience with a salamander.
Now, as you know, these
letters, together with other documents, have been acknowledged by their forger
to be total frauds and part of an evil and devious design which culminated in
the murder of two individuals.
I have wondered what those
whose faith was shaken have thought since the forger confessed to his evil
work.
However, I hasten to add,
the vast majority of Church members, all but a very few, paid little attention
and went forward with their faithful service, living by a conviction firmly
grounded in that knowledge which comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. They knew
then and they know now that God watches over this work, that Jesus Christ is
the head of this Church, that it is true, and that happiness and growth come of
following its precepts and teachings.
Out of this earlier
episode has now arisen another phenomenon. It is described as the writing of a
“new history” of the Church as distinguished from the “old history.” It
represents, among other things, an effort to ferret out every element of folk
magic and the occult in the environment in which Joseph Smith lived to explain
what he did and why.
I have no doubt there was
folk magic practiced in those days. Without question there were superstitions
and the superstitious. I suppose there was some of this in the days when the
Savior walked the earth. There is even some in this age of so-called
enlightenment. For instance, some hotels and business buildings skip the
numbering of floor thirteen. Does this mean there is something wrong with the
building? Of course not. Or with the builders? No.
Similarly,
the fact that there were superstitions among the people in the days of Joseph
Smith is no evidence whatever that the Church came of such superstition.
Joseph
Smith himself wrote or dictated his history. It is his testimony of what
occurred, and he sealed that testimony with his life. It is written in language
clear and plain and unmistakable. From an ancient record he translated the Book
of Mormon by the gift and power of God. It is here for all to see and handle
and read. Those who have read with faith and inquired in prayer have come to a
certain knowledge that it is true. The present effort of trying to find some
other explanation for the organization of the Church, for the origin of the
Book of Mormon, and for the priesthood with its keys and powers will be similar
to other anti-Mormon fads which have come and blossomed and faded. Truth will
prevail. A knowledge of that truth comes by effort and study, yes. But it comes
primarily as a gift from God to those who seek in faith. (Gordon B. Hinckley,
“Lord, Increase Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 1987 - LINK)
Plenty
of 'food for thought'...
Grace
and peace,
David
David
David,
ReplyDeleteAs I mentioned in an earlier thread, I really do not know what to do with the idea that perhaps all that appears as beyond human/supernatural/unexplainable within Mormonism is a product of the adversary not God. I attempt to use my reason to determine if Mormonism comes from man, but when my reason indicates that it cannot come from man; I am left with two choices God or the Adversary. How will I adjudicate between these two?
I suppose one answer from the Supernatural B. crowd is, “See occult practices, know these are always and forever from the adversary and anti-God, and reject Mormonism.” No need to pray to God for truth. In fact if you have already missed this obvious truth, you need to know that the answers to your prayers also came from the adversary.
Well, I see problems in both halves of this apologetic.
First, I very much disagree that the Bible makes it clear that there are God things and magic things and it is obvious which is which. Robert’s list is good so I will just reproduce it:
That ought to be a dead giveaway to you that it is entirely relative to the person whether it is of Satan or of God. After all, the seer stone in Joseph's hat is divine, even if Hiram Page's is not. The same applies to the Mosaic Nehushtan fiery-serpent-talisman, which gives life when looked upon by the Israelites, and is also a holy type of Jesus (the antitype) who likewise gives life from the Cross, yet it is finally destroyed as evil in II Kings 18:4. So too with the contest of serpents between the magicians of Pharaoh and Moses & Aaron. Indeed, to add even more confusion, the serpent is fully Satanic elsewhere (Gen 3:13-15, Rev 12:7-9, 20:2). We likewise have Joseph who was sold into Egypt practicing lecanoscopy (divination/prophecy via a cup of water, Gen 44:2,5), the Israelite High Priest consulting Urim & Thummim. These procedures are used by other, neighboring cultures, yet are considered pagan in those instances.
What of the rods/staffs possessed by Moses & Aaron, which could turn into snakes, and which were used for other miracles (parting of the Reed Sea, water from a rock, etc.)? How is it that Orson Hyde used his rod to witch the location for his prayer of dedication of Palestine to the Gathering of the Jews in 1841, or Brigham used Oliver's rod to witch the location for the Salt Lake Temple July 28, 1847?
I think we see two things in the Bible. We see a real distinction between magic like things that come from God and magic like things that come from the adversary. And we see ancient tribalism. The magic things for the them must be bad and the magic things of the us must be good.
The other half that I should not believe God can answer prayers or I should assume that my prayers are not sincere also doesn’t work well for me. Unless I go full Calvinist, I cannot see an inability of me to seek God and find Him in the Bible. And if the Calvinist is correct, I will be saved or damned and I do not need to concern myself with this as I have ZERO influence or control. So, I think it only rational for me to attempt to adjudicated between Mormonism is from God or Mormonism is from the adversary by praying to know God’s will. So that is what I do/did.
And of course there are other tools to adjudicate, "by their fruits" is one that comes to mind.
Charity, TOm
Hi Tom,
ReplyDeleteThanks much for taking the time to share some of your thoughts on the content of this thread. You wrote:
==I attempt to use my reason to determine if Mormonism comes from man, but when my reason indicates that it cannot come from man; I am left with two choices God or the Adversary. How will I adjudicate between these two?==
I have been asking myself the same question for just over 30 years now. Though for not as long, I ask the same question concerning the Qur'an and the Kitab-i-Iqan.
== I suppose one answer from the Supernatural B. crowd is, “See occult practices, know these are always and forever from the adversary and anti-God, and reject Mormonism.” No need to pray to God for truth. In fact if you have already missed this obvious truth, you need to know that the answers to your prayers also came from the adversary.
Well, I see problems in both halves of this apologetic.
First, I very much disagree that the Bible makes it clear that there are God things and magic things and it is obvious which is which.==
Two points; first, my take is a bit different in that I fully acknowledge that there are a number of practices in the Bible when used with God's approval/command are seen in a positive light, while the same practices when used without God's approval/command are seen in a negative light, becoming identified with occultic terminology. And second, some important LDS authorities and scholars have not been convinced that the 'new history' paradigm shift is accurate.
Now, with that said, I have a couple of questions for you: first, do you believe that the 'new history' paradigm shift is factual enough that it can no longer be denied? And second, if this is so, what is your view of magical/occult practices that do not have God's approval/command?
Grace and peace,
David
Tom and Dave,
ReplyDeleteI would be interested in hearing why you guys feel that Mormonism must have supernatural origins.
Thanks
Hi Steve,
ReplyDeleteGood question. My conclusion is derived from three major lines of evidences: first, all of the numerous naturalistic explanations that have been proposed over the last 180+ years have been debunked to the point that to adopt any of them requires a massive 'leap of faith'. Second, the Book of Mormon; after 30 years of study and reflection, I have come to believe that it was virtually impossible for Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to produced such a work within the relatively brief time frame (less than 3 months)—that all sides of the issue agree upon—via natural means alone. Third, the supernatural events that seem to have permeated the early years of the CoJCoLDS (see THIS BOOK, and THIS WEBSITE for examples).
Grace and peace,
David
David,
ReplyDeleteYou asked:
Now, with that said, I have a couple of questions for you: first, do you believe that the 'new history' paradigm shift is factual enough that it can no longer be denied? And second, if this is so, what is your view of magical/occult practices that do not have God's approval/command?
My “new history paradigm” has distilled upon me a little differently. Some period of time ago there were folks who didn’t read books (and didn’t closely follow Ensign articles). They “knew” things that were not true. I remember reading through Todd Compton’s book in a LDS book store. This happened after 1996, but not much after. I remember thinking that this questions the practice of polygamy, but it must be part of LDS thought as it was in the LDS bookstore. I found out about Mountain Meadows online, but I do not remember being scandalized. Over the last 2 years, I have been a little surprised to discover that Richard Bushman the Patriarch for his Stake is part of the new history paradigm.
I think it most likely that there was a stone in a hat that was associated with the translation of the BOM.
As I read through the “Caul” stories in Ashurst-McGee’s Master thesis, I remember thinking this is pretty thin evidence and I doubt it was significant in Joseph or his families ideas concerning his calling.
I think things between these are true and false.
I want to believe the truth. The most important truth is where should I worship (and serve) and how should this impact my relationship with God. The strongest view of Mormonism I know includes a BOA production that is a problem, some magical thinking that I expect is part of the reality of Joseph Smith’s life (especially before 1830), a priesthood ban that I think was a product of racist ideas and Brigham Young who was a little more racist than your average 1850’s fellow, and polygamy that I believe was born of revelation but was both imperfectly practiced AND embellished in incorrect and negative ways by critics. This strongest view is combined with the BOM, the witnesses of the BOM, the practices of the church today, actions where power and supernatural power was spread rather than held only by Joseph, ideas “restored” that were prevalent in the Early Church, but not common in Joseph’s day (like deification), and other things. I think this produces a compelling case for both the divinity of the CoJCoLDS and the supernatural origins of the CoJCoLDS.
cont…
The question that I ask determine which data is most important. I left behind the idea that there is no God long ago, so the question is where and how does God want me to follow Him.
ReplyDeleteThe “devil did it” makes sense with only a few truths. One would be a fairly strong “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.” Perhaps the devils purpose was to create a competitor for Catholic truth claims. Without the CoJCoLDS I think I would be Catholic. Another would be a radical anti-works gospel that is usually associated with strong Calvinism. Associated or not, this anti-works gospel damns most Catholics, most LDS, and most Protestants. Perhaps some LDS would have found the anti-works gospel without the CoJCoLDS and the devil was after this attack. But, producing a BOM that speaks about Christ as the BOM does is a pretty radical plan on the adversaries part.
Pope Francis disturbs me because the “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” paradigm is impacted by his teachings. I am trying to compare Best to Best, and perhaps the SSPX version of Catholicism and its rejection of the teachings of Pope Francis is the best, but I considered it quite a bit weaker than the Pope JPII or Pope Benedict Catholicism and it has not gotten stronger only the alternatives weaker.
And I still fall back on the idea that my attempts at sincere prayers must be able to help adjudicate between God and the adversary if God will allow the adversary to produce the BOM to lead me away from Him. In fact, if the BOM is from the devil, it seems clear to me that prayer to God is the ONLY way to adjudicate such a question. I want to me in a church with folks who do not read history, think about theology, and … because they are busy with life, busy with loving other, or just not intellectually curious (or capable). The gospel is for thinkers like David Waltz and simple folks who just believe IMO.
So, I think some of the New History is accurate and some probably is not. But, if the radically magical or the very little magical is true, I still must say that if God will allow the adversary to produce the BOM to lead me away from Him, prayer can be the only solution to which God desires me to resort. And the radically magical or very little magical does not convinced me that it SIMPLY must be the devil who produced the BOM.
Charity, TOm
Hello Steve,
ReplyDeleteI think I would mostly echo David’s response. I have spent a great deal of time weighing and sifting the Book of Mormon. I do not know what “horses” in the BOM were, but I find the answers that preserve a traditional view of the BOM to be available and reasonable. I think Nahom is remarkably at the right place and right time. There are numerous somewhat negative and somewhat positive evidences in the BOM, but I find the believers explanation for the negative reasonable and the rarely offered critics explanations for the positives to be inadequate. When I am done with this, the BOM is very positive evidence of the supernatural.
When I look at witness statements (the 8 and the 3) and other witnesses of various things, I find this to be compelling evidence that something supernatural happened and there were real plates of some sort.
I agree with numerous non-believers that Joseph Smith was sincere and was not some conscious huckster. I do not think the historical record aligns well with a conscious fraud theory. I do not think his experiences were the product of profound delusions. Believer and non-believer, friend and foe, often found him to be a reasonable fellow with a compelling narrative. So something supernatural happened to Joseph Smith that lead him to lead a church.
I think the above is similar to David’s answer, but it is what came to me.
Charity, TOm
Hi Tom,
ReplyDeleteThanks much for taking the time to reply to my questions. You wrote:
==The “devil did it” makes sense with only a few truths. One would be a fairly strong “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.” Perhaps the devils purpose was to create a competitor for Catholic truth claims. Without the CoJCoLDS I think I would be Catholic. Another would be a radical anti-works gospel that is usually associated with strong Calvinism. Associated or not, this anti-works gospel damns most Catholics, most LDS, and most Protestants. Perhaps some LDS would have found the anti-works gospel without the CoJCoLDS and the devil was after this attack. But, producing a BOM that speaks about Christ as the BOM does is a pretty radical plan on the adversaries part. ==
Interesting take; my thoughts concerning the "devil did it" are much more pervasive than yours, and in a real sense reflect the position on this issue that is presented in the BoM. Note the following:
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. (1 Nephi 14)
As you well know, my quandary concerns the true identity of "the church of the Lamb of God".
== So, I think some of the New History is accurate and some probably is not. But, if the radically magical or the very little magical is true, I still must say that if God will allow the adversary to produce the BOM to lead me away from Him, prayer can be the only solution to which God desires me to resort. And the radically magical or very little magical does not convinced me that it SIMPLY must be the devil who produced the BOM.==
Understood. The following thoughts from Joseph Fielding Smith ring true to me:
Very few among us read too much; most of us read too little. The Lord has said: “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith.” [D&C 88:118; 109:7.]
We are expected to study and learn all we can by research and analysis. But there are limits to our learning abilities in the realms of reason and study. The things of God can be known only by the Spirit of God. We must gain knowledge by faith.
Men may search, they may study, they may learn, of course, a great many things; they may lay up a great fund of information, but they will never be able to come to the fulness of truth . . . unless they are guided by the Spirit of truth, the Holy Ghost, and keep the commandments of God. (Teachings of Presidents of the Church - Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 145, 146.)
Grace and peace,
David