Over the last few days I
have had little time for the internet (guests over the weekend, followed by
fantastic weather). Today, I finally did a bit of online browsing, finding a
couple items of interest. First, I discovered (thanks to Ken Temple), that James
R. White has written a new book on the Qur'an (link), which I ordered. Second, I downloaded the most
recent issue of the Jehovah's Witnesses The Watchtower magazine (study
edition): July 15, 2013 - pdf.
As a former JW (4th generation), I have maintained an interest in the movement, keeping my extensive library of Watchtower literature up to date. For those who share this interest, the latest Watchtower issue is a must read, for it details some significant changes in JW thought. I was going to take the time to document those changes, but discovered online that a gent by the name of Doug Mason (another former JW), had already done so in the following 36 page, online pdf article:
As a former JW (4th generation), I have maintained an interest in the movement, keeping my extensive library of Watchtower literature up to date. For those who share this interest, the latest Watchtower issue is a must read, for it details some significant changes in JW thought. I was going to take the time to document those changes, but discovered online that a gent by the name of Doug Mason (another former JW), had already done so in the following 36 page, online pdf article:
Now,
the changes that were made did not come as much of a 'surprise' to me, but
the timing did, for over the weekend I had an interesting discussion with
my oldest daughter concerning JW chronology/doctrine; more specifically, that
in a very real sense, the movement had a "shelf-life", that their
interpretation of the Bible and history (and certain aspects of their theology
directly derived thereof) could not reasonably extend for more than another
20-30 years without some significant changes. So, I think most will understand
why had a bit of a 'WOW' moment earlier today...
Grace
and peace,
10 comments:
Hi David , iam a frequent follower of your blog , your blog has some really good information specially the part dealing with quotations of the early Church fathers
. Your short articles on Islam are also commendable .
This is the first time that iam commenting here . The reason for my comment here is the book by James White ' what every Christian should know about the Quran '.
What i want to say concerning the book is ...it is rather amusing to me that people want to learn about the Quran from a Christian apologist who is neither a scholar nor a academician on Quranic studies and is pretty naive on it by all standards . It is like Muslims reading a book on Biblical textual criticism written by Ahmed Deedat or reading a book on historical Jesus studies by Zakir Naik !
According to me this is the problem Christian apologetics is facing today in their outreach to Islam , they hardly have any scholarly information on Islam , their major source on Islam is the internet or some books written by people like Ergun Carner , James White , Ibn Warraq etc none among them having any scholarly credentials . On the contrary Muslim apologetics is marching ahead from a similar situation to really good scholarly approach , you will frequently find Muslim apologist quoting from scholarly sources and quoting scholars like James Dunn, E.P Sanders , Richard Baukham , Bart Ehrman , D.C Parker , Eldon Epp , James Tabor , Dale Allison etc all top scholars among their respective fields . So , according to me if Christians really want to reach out to Islam they should be reading good scholarly books .
There are tons of academic work on the Quran , for a good overall scholarly view i want to recommend
1) The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an by Jane Dammen McAuliffe
2) The Story of the Qur'an: Its History and Place in Muslim Life by
Ingrid Mattson
Kind regards
Hi Ali,
Thanks much for taking the time to respond—you wrote:
==Hi David , iam a frequent follower of your blog , your blog has some really good information specially the part dealing with quotations of the early Church fathers
. Your short articles on Islam are also commendable .==
Me: Thanks Ali; it is always good to learn that someone is appreciating my efforts.
==This is the first time that iam commenting here . The reason for my comment here is the book by James White ' what every Christian should know about the Quran '.
What i want to say concerning the book is ...it is rather amusing to me that people want to learn about the Quran from a Christian apologist who is neither a scholar nor a academician on Quranic studies and is pretty naive on it by all standards . It is like Muslims reading a book on Biblical textual criticism written by Ahmed Deedat or reading a book on historical Jesus studies by Zakir Naik ! ==
Me: Since I have not read the book yet, my comments will be based on the articles, debates, and audio/video contributions by Mr. White that I have taken in, and those efforts strongly suggest that your take is an accurate one.
==According to me this is the problem Christian apologetics is facing today in their outreach to Islam , they hardly have any scholarly information on Islam , their major source on Islam is the internet or some books written by people like Ergun Carner , James White , Ibn Warraq etc none among them having any scholarly credentials .==
Me: I think for the most part (there are a few exceptions) that you are correct here. Back in April 2010, I blogged on a book by Dr. Kate Zebiri which offered a detailed look into contemporary Christian and Muslim apologetics (LINK).
==On the contrary Muslim apologetics is marching ahead from a similar situation to really good scholarly approach , you will frequently find Muslim apologist quoting from scholarly sources and quoting scholars like James Dunn, E.P Sanders , Richard Baukham , Bart Ehrman , D.C Parker , Eldon Epp , James Tabor , Dale Allison etc all top scholars among their respective fields .==
Me: If you have the time (and interest), could you provide some links to such contributions?
==So , according to me if Christians really want to reach out to Islam they should be reading good scholarly books .==
Me: Agreed.
==There are tons of academic work on the Quran , for a good overall scholarly view i want to recommend
1) The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an by Jane Dammen McAuliffe
2) The Story of the Qur'an: Its History and Place in Muslim Life by
Ingrid Mattson==
Me: I have the first work (it is quite good, but some of the contributions included are better than others), and will look into the second.
In my own personal studies on Islam and the Qur'an, I have sincerely attempted to provide myself with the best scholarship available to the English reader, and this from a wide range of perspectives—conservative, moderate, liberal, Muslim and non-Muslim. I think most will find that my threads on Islam reflect my broader readings, such that it will be difficult for one to 'label' my efforts.
Anyway, thanks again for your comments. Sincerely hope to see you posting here on a regular basis!
Grace and peace,
David
Very interesting Dave.
By the way, you may not recall, but you touched on this looming difficulty for Jehovah's Witnesses in our last phone conversation a few weeks ago.
If you were still a faithful Witness, would you find this move to be a relief from troubles on the horizon? Or would it raise greater difficulties?
It is all the same to me if the Witnesses remain as such. What I would be concerned about is that if they leave the Witnesses, they will retain the prejudices against Traditional Christianity that they have learned.
It is one thing to leave a movement. It is quite another to re-evaluate the presuppositions which made the movement attractive in the first place.
Rory
Hi Ali Khan,
I am glad you posted your misgivings about learning about your faith (assuming you are Muslim) from outsiders. I have the same feelings about those who learn about my Catholic faith from those who are not Catholic. You have prompted me to some thoughts.
According to true Christianity as I understand it, the faith which alone leads to all truth and salvation is a gift of grace to be nurtured like a tender plant. Such a gift is not indestructible. Faith isn't guaranteed against willful or random curiosity about successful errors.
For a good reason, such as the desire to more effectively reach souls, I may study Islam or other erroneous religious systems. You are certainly correct if you observe that I should not expect to understand Islam the best by reading someone who has never even been Muslim. But my goal is only to be able to combat error without misrepresentation. Therefore, there is theoretically a proper place for good polemics (arguments against other beliefs) that begin from an outside perspective. I will wait for Dave to say if he has found one!
But to be good polemically, every "successful error" must be accurately presented. I would say that an error certainly "succeeds" if it has retained at least a million believers after a thousand years, or gained ten million believers after a hundred years.
There is a tension between telling the truth about error and building up welcomed walls that comfort the faithful against a perceived error. The faithful are always very receptive to believing that successful error is easily dismissed. Rare is the author who is motivated to write against a religious system who is equally committed to only saying what is true about the error. All too often, popular works are merely looking for a way to make error appear obviously absurd. The sad result is that most people of faith end up thinking successful error is for the stupid.
I hold it is axiomatic that "successful error" is never ridiculous. The essential successful error is usually deep-rooted, under the surface, presuppositional. Criticism of that which follows from the presupposition is ordinarily analyzed outside of that context, which is folly. That is what bad polemics does and Catholics have bad polemicists too, especially in our days. Bad polemics indulge the understandable but unrealistic desires of the reader. The sad result is that the misinformed reader become less respectful of that which is a more worthy and dangerous ideological foe than they realize.
So I appreciate your warning about these kinds of books. There is a sense in which true faith must have great respect before the successful error. When necessity arises to study, true faith should prayerfully fear successful error for its attractive qualities.
So from whom would I, a Catholic with the fragile gift of faith, become more deeply informed about Islam? Probably, and only after permission from a spiritual superior, from Muslims. Although I don't currently see the necessity of learning more (I have read the Qur'an twice), be assured of my continuing respect for Islamic claims and if the situation arises, reflection on books such as the two you recommend.
Rory
Hi Rory,
Hope you had a great weekend; the weather here was incredible for early May—mid 80s and blue skies. But, the clouds are back and the mid 60s is supposed to be the high for today...it was nice while it lasted.
On Saturday, you posted:
==Very interesting Dave.
By the way, you may not recall, but you touched on this looming difficulty for Jehovah's Witnesses in our last phone conversation a few weeks ago.==
Me: I did not until you mentioned it; I think we also talked a bit about Mormonism and their apocalyptic origins, and ramifications thereof.
==If you were still a faithful Witness, would you find this move to be a relief from troubles on the horizon? Or would it raise greater difficulties?==
Me: I sincerely doubt that the 'average' JW had/has the same type of concerns that I have expressed. As a faithful JW you spend 5 hours a week attending 'meetings' (i.e. church), at least 2.5 hours a week going 'door-to-door' (i.e. evangelizing), and a few hours studying WT material; add your job and family, not much time is left for reflection. And further, I remember that many JWs actually look forward to 'new light'; much of the mindset of JWs is that as the end approaches, 'the truth will become brighter'. When 'new light' is published, is does not take long for it to be assimilated within the JW community.
But, with that said, I am pretty sure the folks in power (i.e. the governing body) are fully aware of the concerns that I have mentioned. They are also aware of all the anti-JW sites on the internet which focus on the chronological and historical anomalies; I cannot help but think that this hampers their 'door-to-door' efforts, so I suspect that the recent changes are an effort to soften those chronological and historical anomalies. (There is one exception though, the limiting of the "faithful and discreet slave" to the governing body, which is a consolidation of authority.)
==It is all the same to me if the Witnesses remain as such. What I would be concerned about is that if they leave the Witnesses, they will retain the prejudices against Traditional Christianity that they have learned.==
Me: I cannot help but think that much of the anti-Traditional Christianity found among all the apocalyptic sects (JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al.) mirrors the anti-Catholic polemic/rhetoric of conservative Protestantism; such polemic/rhetoric is so deeply ingrained that most who leave the JW movement do so for another form of anti-Traditional Christianity.
==It is one thing to leave a movement. It is quite another to re-evaluate the presuppositions which made the movement attractive in the first place.==
Me: So very true Rory...
Grace and peace,
David
I am sure you knew my meaning Dave. But for the record to clarify on "It is all the same to me if the Witnesses remain as such."
Negative attacks on Mormonism, when "effective" doesn't usually make Catholics or even Evangelicals. It makes atheists. They retain their presuppositions. It seems to me like similar problems might be in store for JW's who find their faith kicked out from under them without attractive truth that makes them reevaluate everything. Of course I want everyone to be Catholic. But I'd rather a Jehovah's Witness remain one than to lose belief in God or religion altogether because of how convinced they remain that the rest of Christendom is false.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen
Some people don't know that the Hebrew and Greek word for generation have different meanings. The Ancient Hebrew Research Center says this of the Hebrew word "dor" which is translated as generation:
"Dor
The Hebrew word דור (dor, Strong's #1755) is used 167 times in the Hebrew Bible and usually translated as "generation." While the Hebrew word דור (dor) and the English word "generation" are similar in meaning, it is important to understand the differences in order to have a clearer picture of the authors understanding of the word which may impact how a particular passage is understood.
A generation is the time from one birth to the birth of the next generation. While the word דור (dor) has this meaning, there some differences between the Hebrew understanding of this word and our own. In our Greco-Roman culture we see time as a line with a beginning and an end while the Eastern mind sees time as a continuous circle. WHILE WE MAY SEE A GENERATION AS A TIME LINE WITH A BEGINNING AND AN END, THE HEBREWS SAW A GENERATION AS ONE CIRCLE WITH THE NEXT GENERATION AS A CONTINUATION OF THE CIRCLE. THERE IS NO BEGINNING END NO END."
https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/studies-interpretation/hebrew-concept-of-order.htm
There's evidence that the Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek.
https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/semitic-origins/semitic-origins-of-the-book-of-matthew.htm
Linguist Iver Larsen M.A., who works on bible translations, feels the word generation may not be the best word to translate the Greek word genea as since it has different meanings, he states:
"The meaning of genea
As I shall discuss the meaning of genea in the following, I am well aware that I go against a tradition, which is especially strong in the English-speaking world.
Who is this generation? Briefly stated, the tradition more or less equates the word genea with English ‘generation.’ This may work in a few places, especially when the word occurs in the plural form, but in the phrase “this genea” it is misleading to use “generation.” It does not seem to agree with the meaning of the Greek phrase or the Hebrew behind it, and it does not make good sense in most places where the word occurs in the New Testament. Rather, genea means ‘A CLASS OF PEOPLE BOUND TOGETHER THROUGH A COMMON ORIGIN OR WITH A COMMON BOND.’
In certain contexts genea does have the very restricted sense of the English “generation,” but in most contexts it does not have this narrow sense. The English word “generation” has undergone a semantic shift so that the meaning today is very much narrowed down as compared to the Greek genea, the Latin generatio and “generation” in the English language as spoken when the King James translation was first made....The Oxford Universal Dictionary gives the following, now obsolete (latest attested use 1727) sense of “generation”: “class, kind or set of persons.”
When discussing Matthew 24:34 he wrote:
"Matt 24:34: (Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32) “Truly, I say to you [disciples], this genea will not pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” This is one of the most difficult verses to interpret. Some have argued that the phrase “passing away” suggests that a temporal element is present in the sense of genea here. This does not sound convincing. The next verse says that “heaven and earth” will pass away, while “my words” will not pass away, but no one would suggest that “heaven,” “earth” and “my words” thereby acquire a temporal sense. The word “pass away” does not mean ‘to die’ as GNB suggests. The meaning is much broader and there is no restriction that the subject must be animate as there is in the word “to die.” It simply means “come to an end, cease to exist.” The most obvious meaning of the verse is that certain “things” will continue to exist, while other “things” will cease to exist. Heaven and earth will cease to exist (at least in the present form), but both “my words” and “this class of people” will continue to exist in spite of opposition and tribulation.
It has been suggested that the phrase might refer to the Jewish people as a whole. This, too, I find rather unconvincing. Although the other instances of “this genea” do seem to refer to a group of the Jews, namely those who rejected Jesus as Messiah, this does not necessarily mean that “this genea” always has to refer to Jews. One important difference is that where it refers to the Jews who rejected Jesus, the context has very negative and judgmental connotations. But in this context, the connotations are positive. Whatever the reference is, that class of people will endure through tribulations. By parallelism, the phrase is closely connected to “my words” which is also positive and has endurance. Who would ensure that the words of Jesus were kept in existence through difficult times? It seems to me that “this genea” in this verse most naturally refers to the class of Christians keeping the word of
God throughout the ages until the end of heaven and earth. This ties in well with the whole discourse of Matt 24 being directed to the disciples in private (v. 3) and the frequent use of the word “elect” to signify an important thematic participant in the discourse (v. 22, 24, 31)." academia. edu Generation_is_a_wrong_translation_choice_for_Greek_genea
I don't agree with everything he wrote, but I found it interesting. This understanding is not identical to Jehovah's Witnesses current understanding of generation at Matt 24:34, but it is similar. With these understandings of the Hebrew and Greek words, the genea or generation from the parousia of Christ would still be present and ongoing. https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1102020418&srcid=share
One brother put it wonderfully:
"Changing our understanding of the definition of the "generation" Christ [mentioned] has almost no effect on primary doctrine such as the date 1914 and the fact that we are in the "last days." That generation and the last days definitely started in Oct of the year 1914 and the end is still coming soon.
The evidence is irrefutable that Christ returned in Kingdom power and began his invisible presence in 1914. Not only is this confirmed by Biblical chronology found in Daniel's prophecies but it is confirmed by the fulfilment of events foretold regarding the last days (Mt.24:3ff; 2Tim.3:1ff; Rev.10:10ff).
The Bible shows that True Worshipers would be able to confidently discern that time period while the obdurate would "take no note" and even claim that things are continuing as always (Mt.24:39; 2Pt.3:3,4)."
** http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/08/jehovahs-witnesses-current.html?m=1
.....
*** https://dismythed.blogspot.com/?m=0
Why Do Jehovah's Witnesses Seek "New Light" if They Already Have the Truth? https://dismythed.blogspot.com/2012/06/why-do-jehovahs-witnesses-seek-new.html
* https://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-light-should-opposers-of-jehovahs.html
.....
This is a translation from Russian about 607 & 1914.
Part 1 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qVUgBmI-ZC0aMU-4v0x0fOjFQIS_K3az/view?usp=drive_link
Part 2 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ja8B_W28Zh1Zk6sNBINnFvX2jvoUOvDV/view?usp=drive_link
Hi T,
Thanks much for your posts and the links; very helpful and informative.
Seems I need to make some adjustments concerning my understanding of 'this generation'.
Grace and peace,
David
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