Yesterday morning, I submitted the following post to TurretinFan’s thread, Can We Say “God Bless You” To Roman Catholics:
I certainly cannot speak for ALL Catholic Christians on the subject of “faith in Christ alone”, but I am one Catholic Christian who accepts the teachings of the Bible on this important truth (properly understood). That other Catholic Christians embrace this teaching is evidenced by the following:
>>C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25). "Grace creates faith not only when faith begins in a person but as long as faith lasts“ (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).The working of God’s grace does not exclude human action: God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "As soon as the Holy Spirit has initiated his work of regeneration and renewal in us through the Word and the holy sacraments, it is certain that we can and must cooperate by the power of the Holy Spirit...“ (The Formula of Concord, FC SD II,64f; BSLK 897,37ff). >>
See THIS DOCUMENT for the full context.
Grace and peace,
David
P.S. TF: I think you may be interested in a new thread posted by Paul Hoffer LAST FRIDAY.
Since submitting my post, a new comment has appeared in the thread’s combox, and TF has posted an additional 3 new threads. So, at least for now, I am assuming that he has rejected yet another one of my attempted posts—an event, I must admit, that is not only frustrating, but also a bit saddening.
Grace and peace,
David
Thursday, April 16, 2009
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7 comments:
I am sorry to hear that my leaving your comment as yet unpublished has caused you sadness. That certainly was not my intent.
I was weighing over addressing the issue of the difference between what I mean by what I said and what the Common Statement meant by what it said.
Your comment "properly understood" is really the lynchpin, you see, where everything either hangs together or falls apart.
I do hope that you do trust in Christ alone for salvation and do not put your trust in your church, her sacraments, or your own cooperation, and I don't automatically conclude otherwise simply because you remain within the walls or Rome.
-TurretinFan
Hi TF,
I sincerely appreciate your response; your wrote:
>> I am sorry to hear that my leaving your comment as yet unpublished has caused you sadness. That certainly was not my intent.>>
Me: The sadness arose because despite our theological differences, I have come to believe that you and I have been able to carry on some serious and charitable dialogue(s). It is good to hear that your intent was not one of neglect and or censorship.
>> I was weighing over addressing the issue of the difference between what I mean by what I said and what the Common Statement meant by what it said.>>
Me: Fair enough TF—I shall be patient.
>>Your comment "properly understood" is really the lynchpin, you see, where everything either hangs together or falls apart.>>
Me: Agreed.
>> I do hope that you do trust in Christ alone for salvation and do not put your trust in your church, her sacraments, or your own cooperation, and I don't automatically conclude otherwise simply because you remain within the walls or Rome.>>
Me: Before addressing the above in any real depth, I am going to wait for your more detailed response; but, in the meantime, I will say that one can believe in the concepts of grace alone and faith alone without rejecting a sacramental means of grace.
Grace and peace,
David
"I do hope that you do trust in Christ alone for salvation and do not put your trust in your church, her sacraments, or your own cooperation, and I don't automatically conclude otherwise simply because you remain within the walls or Rome."
Is not the Church and her Sacraments amongst the very things which come directly from Our Lord Himself and the very instruments by which such grace is conveyed?
Unless, of course, the Author of the Gospels & St. Paul as well (in particular, his Epistles to the Corinthians) are but liars and the Fathers of the Church who likewise conveyed as much and transmitted to future generations of the Church the same are simply perpetrators of the same crime as well!
David,
You should know better if you happen to agree with this anti-Catholic dribble!
Hello Anonymous,
You wrote:
>>Is not the Church and her Sacraments amongst the very things which come directly from Our Lord Himself and the very instruments by which such grace is conveyed?>>
Me: Yes, the sacraments come "directly from Our Lord" (through the Holy Spirit) and convey grace, through faith. The sacraments are great gifts from our Lord.
>>Unless, of course, the Author of the Gospels & St. Paul as well (in particular, his Epistles to the Corinthians) are but liars and the Fathers of the Church who likewise conveyed as much and transmitted to future generations of the Church the same are simply perpetrators of the same crime as well!
David,
You should know better if you happen to agree with this anti-Catholic dribble!>>
Me: Perhaps you missed my comment to TF…
>>I will say that one can believe in the concepts of grace alone and faith alone without rejecting a sacramental means of grace.>>
Catholic theology is Biblical theology, and the tensions which exist in the Bible, exist in Catholic theology. For instance St. Paul could write:
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (Rom. 3:28 - NAS)
And:
…who WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; (Rom. 2:6, 7 - NAS)
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. (Gal. 5:6 – NAS)
Grace and peace,
David
Anti-Catholic Dribble? That's what Maravich did. I think the Catholic Church has never opposed good dribble.
"I do hope that you do trust in Christ alone for salvation and do not put your trust in your church, her sacraments, or your own cooperation"
"I will say that one can believe in the concepts of grace alone and faith alone without rejecting a sacramental means of grace."
I've never understood this dichotomy - do Protestants think progressive sanctification (certainly a part of salvation) is not from Christ alone and grace alone? As Hodge wrote, "The soul after regeneration continues dependent upon the constant gracious operations of the Holy Spirit, but is, through grace, able to co-operate with them." If not, why do they not attempt to view the RC perspective in the same light?
And if their concern is over the language of merit or whatnot, Aquinas explains in q. 114 of the ST that first grace/initial justification, restoration after a lapse, perseverance cannot be merited (which Trent and the CCC echo) I think the distinction between operative and cooperative grace and the mechanics of merit in RC theology sometimes gets lost and confusion comes into play when Protestants see Trent (and Aquinas) saying "eternal life" can be merited - but that needs to be taken with the above context and distinctions. Google books has an interesting piece that can be previewed in full on Aquinas' view of merit and the Reformation here pp. 1-18.
Hey Dude,
Good post. (And thanks much for the link!) You said:
>>I've never understood this dichotomy - do Protestants think progressive sanctification (certainly a part of salvation) is not from Christ alone and grace alone?>>
Me: IMHO, much of the confusion lies in the misunderstanding of terminology. A Protestant who ‘gets-it-right’, is the Evangelical scholar A.N.S. Lane; his book, Justification by Faith in Catholic-Protestant Dialogue, is a must read.
Grace and peace,
David
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