Earlier
today, in the combox of a recent thread here at AF, an astute reader
wrote:
So I think maybe the whole realm of "how
does one get saved", hasn't been quite fleshed out properly as the 1st
centuries were so focussed on getting Christology right, maybe some of the
implications of Jesus' taking up human nature, wasn't thought out fully. This
can be seen in that the East & West have diverged on: vicarious atonement
vs theosis & divinization and what that means in practise. (LINK)
There
is no question that the EO churches have placed a much greater emphasis on
the doctrine of "theosis
& divinization" (i.e. deification) than the churches within the
Latin/Western tradition. However, with that said, there have been a number of
Catholic theologians who have embraced the concept of deification. In doing so,
they follow a rich tradition found throughout the writings of the Church
Fathers (see THIS
THREAD). In two prior posts (first;
second), I have touched on deification within
the Catholic tradition. The following selections will bring to the fore a
number of other Catholics who have written on the doctrine:
G.
H. Joyce
God, says St. Peter “has
given us most great and precious promises that by these you may be made partarkers of the Divine nature (2 Pet.
i. 4). Startling as the words are, the teaching which we have already
considered will have prepared us for them. They signify that the sonship
conferred on us through Jesus Christ raises us so far above our creaturely
condition, that by it we partake in the life which is proper to the Three
Divine Persons in virtue of Their nature. The passage does not stand altogether
alone. When our Lord prays to His Father on behalf of the apostles and all who
through their word should believe in Him, “that they all many be one, as Thou,
Father in Me and I in Thee, that they may be made perfect in one” (John xvii.
22, 23), His words can hardly signify less than this. If our union with God is
comparable to that which unites the Father and the Son, it can only be a union
bases on a share in the Divine life...The fathers of the Church from the
earliest times with one consent take the apostle’s words in their literal
sense. There is no question of any
figurative interpretation. They do not hesitate to speak of the
“deification” of man. By grace, they tell us, men become gods. (G.H. Joyce,
S.J., The Catholic Doctrine of Grace,
London: 1920, pp. 34, 35)
Matthias
Joseph Scheeben
If
man is to be reunited to God as his Father, God Himself must raise him up again
to His side...God must again draw man up to His bosom as His child, regenerate
him to new divine life, and again clothe him with the garment of His children, the splendor of His own nature and glory...this
transformation of the will is essentially bound up with the inner elevation of
our entire being by the grace of divine sonship and participation in the divine nature...The children of God participate as such in the divine holiness
of their Father, in His very nature.
(Matthis J. Scheeben, The Mysteries of
Christianity, B. Herder Book Co.: St. Loius, pp. 615, 616, 617, 619 -
emphasis mine - German first ed. 1865; English ed. 1946, translated from the
1941 German ed.)
What we cannot claim by right, the infinite liberality of God gives us in grace. Although we are not by nature the children of God, we become such through grace, and so true is this that, as adopted children, we are put on par with the natural Son of God. We become by grace what He is by nature. What He has in Himself, that we obtain through participation in His nature. (Matthis J. Scheeben, The Glories of Divine Grace, Tan Books, 2000, p. 96.)
“But the Son is not only kindred or similar to the Father, He is one with Him as the branch is one with the tree, the ray of light with the light, the brook with the fountain. So too, grace makes us one with God, not in the same perfect manner [i.e. ‘by nature’], but in a similar way. And yet it is not a question of a mere relationship or similarity, but on an intimate union which makes us, as it were, one being with God” (Ibid., p. 154).
“Thus, when we are united to God by grace [i.e. not ‘by nature’, as is the Son], we not only obtain and direct into our soul a ray of divine glory, a small stream of divine life, but we may also consider as our own the divine Sun itself, the foundation of divine life, and we may rejoice at God’s perfections as though they were ours” (Ibid., p. 158).
What we cannot claim by right, the infinite liberality of God gives us in grace. Although we are not by nature the children of God, we become such through grace, and so true is this that, as adopted children, we are put on par with the natural Son of God. We become by grace what He is by nature. What He has in Himself, that we obtain through participation in His nature. (Matthis J. Scheeben, The Glories of Divine Grace, Tan Books, 2000, p. 96.)
“But the Son is not only kindred or similar to the Father, He is one with Him as the branch is one with the tree, the ray of light with the light, the brook with the fountain. So too, grace makes us one with God, not in the same perfect manner [i.e. ‘by nature’], but in a similar way. And yet it is not a question of a mere relationship or similarity, but on an intimate union which makes us, as it were, one being with God” (Ibid., p. 154).
“Thus, when we are united to God by grace [i.e. not ‘by nature’, as is the Son], we not only obtain and direct into our soul a ray of divine glory, a small stream of divine life, but we may also consider as our own the divine Sun itself, the foundation of divine life, and we may rejoice at God’s perfections as though they were ours” (Ibid., p. 158).
Fr.
Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P
…we
must bear in mind that grace is really and formally a participation in the
divine nature precisely in so far as it is divine, a participation in the
Deity, in that which makes God God, in His intimate Life…Grace is a mysterious
participation in this essence, which surpasses all natural knowledge…Grace
makes us participate really and formally in this Deity, in this eminent and
intimate life of God, because grace is in us the radical principle of
essentially divine operating that will ultimately consist in seeing God
immediately, as He sees Himself, and in loving Him as He loves Himself. Grace
is the seed of glory. In order to know its essence intimately, we must first
have seen the divine essence of which grace is the participation. (Fr. Reginald
Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., Christian Perfection and Contemplation, St.
Louis and London: B. Herder Book Co., 1937 – reprinted by Tan Books and
Publishers, 2003, pp. 55, 56.)
The Deity as we know it here on earth contains only implicitly the divine attributes deduced from it. But when we shall see it as it is in itself there will no longer be any need for deduction. We shall see explicitly in the eminence of the Deity, superior to being, to unity, to goodness, all the infinite perfections and the three divine persons. (Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., Our Saviour and His Love For Us, St. Louis and London: B. Herder Book Co., 1951 – reprinted by Tan Books and Publishers, 1998, pp. 351, 352.)
The Deity as we know it here on earth contains only implicitly the divine attributes deduced from it. But when we shall see it as it is in itself there will no longer be any need for deduction. We shall see explicitly in the eminence of the Deity, superior to being, to unity, to goodness, all the infinite perfections and the three divine persons. (Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., Our Saviour and His Love For Us, St. Louis and London: B. Herder Book Co., 1951 – reprinted by Tan Books and Publishers, 1998, pp. 351, 352.)
Lugwig
Ott
The
Church prays in the Offertory of the Holy Mass : “Grant that by the mystery of
this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His divinity, who vouchsafed
to become partaker of our humanity.” Similarly in the Preface of the Feast of
Christ’s Ascension into Heaven : “He was assumed into Heaven in order that we
might be partakers in His divinity.” Cf. D 1021.
According to 2 Peter 1, 4
the Christian is elevated to participation in the Divine nature...Again, the
scriptural texts which represent justification as generation or birth from
God (John 1, 12 et seq. ; 3, 5 ; 1 John
3, 1. 9 ; Tit. 3. 5 ; James 1, 18 ; 1 Peter 1, 23), indirectly teach the
participation of man in the Divine nature, as generation consists in the
communication of the nature of the generator to the generated.
From the scriptural texts
cited, and from others (Ps. 81, 1. 6 ; John 10, 34 et seq.), the Fathers
derived the teaching of the deification of man by grace (θείωσις, deificatio).
It is a firm conviction of the Fathers that God became man so that man might
become God, that is, defied. (Dr. Lugwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 256 - German ed. 1952; English
1955.)
George
D. Smith
The application of all
this to the question of sanctifying grace will be seen more and more as we
proceed, but for the present we simply assert the magnificent truth that grace
is not only a positive reality in the soul, not only a reality which no created
being could produce, but a reality which in itself is higher than the whole
order of created things (even angelic) and is truly divine. This brings us at
once to a wonderful phrase of St Peter, who says that we are made “partakers of
the divine nature.” Catholic theology has ever clung to the belief that here we
have no mere figure of speech but the declaration of a definite fact. We really
are made to be partakers of the divine nature. It is not merely that our
spiritual faculties of intellect and will establish a special likeness to God
in our souls; that is true enough, but over and above this natural likeness to
God a wholly supernatural quality is given to us which makes us to be of the
same nature as God...St Augustine puts the matter thus: He descended that we
might ascend, and “whilst retaining his own divine nature he partook of our
human nature, that we whilst keeping our own nature, might become partakers of
his.” St Thomas Aquinas, echoing the constant teaching of the past, declares in
a passage which the Church uses for the feast of Corpus Christi: “the
only-begotten Son of God, wishing to make us partakers of his own divinity,
took upon himself our human nature that having become man he might make men to
be gods.” And we know how the Church has enshrined this wonderful truth in one
of the most beautiful of the prayers at Mass. “O God, who in creating human
nature, didst marvellously ennoble it, and hast still more marvellously renewed
it, grant that by the mysery of this water and wine we may be made partakers
of his Godhead, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus
Christ, thy Son, our Lord.” (The Teaching of the Catholic Church, edited
by Canon George D. Smith, 1960, volume 1, pp. 553, 554.)
Both St John and St Paul
exult in proclaiming this act of divine condescension. “Dearly beloved,” the
first writes with all the earnestness of the disciple of love, “we are now the
sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when
he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. And
everyone that hath this hope in him sanctifieth himself.”...In light of such
luminous teaching it is clear that is in a very special sense that we are
children of God...Sanctifying grace, as we have seen, is a positive reality
infused into the soul by which we are made to share the divine life...By
sanctifying grace the very life of God is imparted unto them. (Ibid. pp.
556, 557.)
Catherine
Mowry LaCugna
Jesus Christ, the visible
icon of the invisible God, discloses what it means to be fully personal, divine
as well as human. The Spirit of God, poured into our hearts as love, (Rom.
5:5), gathers us together into the body of Christ, transforming us so that “we
become by grace what God is by nature,” namely, persons in full communion with
God and with every creature. (God For Us, p. 1.)
Saint
Joseph Daily Missal
Deus, qui humanae
substantiae dignitatem mirabiliter condidisti, et mirabilius reformasti: da
nobis per hujus aquae et vini mysterium, ejus divinitatis esse consortes, qui
humanitatis nostrae fieri dignatus est particeps, Jesus Christus Filius tuus
Dominus noster: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus. per omnia saecula saeculorum. Amen.
O GOD, Who established the
nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant
that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of
His Divinity, who has condescended to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus
Christ, Your Son, our Lord: Who with You lives and reigns in the unity of the
Holy Spirit, God, world without end. Amen. (Saint Joseph Daily Missal,
1961, pp. 660, 661.)
John
Paul II
This is the central truth
of all Christian soteriology that finds an organic unity with the revealed
reality of the God-Man. God became man that man could truly participate in the
life of God—so that, indeed, in a certain sense, he could become God. The
Fathers of the Church had a clear consciousness of this fact. It is sufficient
to recall St. Irenaeus who, in his exhortations to imitate Christ, the only sure
teacher, declared: “Through the immense love he bore, he became what we are,
thereby affording us the opportunity of becoming what he is.” (John Paul II, Jesus, Son and Savior, 1996, p. 215 -
General audience address September 2, 1987.)
John
Paul II – Dominum et Vivificantem Thus there is a supernatural “adoption,” of which
the source is the Holy Spirit, love and gift. As such he is given to man.
And in the superabundance of the uncreated gift there begins in the
heart of all human beings that particular created gift whereby they
“become partakers of the divine nature.” Thus human life becomes permeated,
through participation, by the divine life, and itself acquires a divine,
supernatural dimension. (The Encyclicals of John Paul II, p. 318.)
John
Paul II - Redemptor Hominis The Church has only one life: that which is given her by
her Spouse and Lord. Indeed, precisely because Christ united himself with her
in his mystery of Redemption, the Church must be strongly united with each man.
This union of Christ with man is in itself a mystery. From the mystery is born
“the new man,” called to become a partaker of God’s life. (The Encyclicals
of John Paul II, p. 79.)
Second Vatican Council
For Jesus Christ was sent
into the world as the true Mediator between God and men. Since He is God, all
the fullness of the divine nature dwells in Him bodily (Col. 2:9); as man he is
the new Adam, full of grace and of truth (John 1:14) , who has been constituted
head of a restored humanity. So the Son of God entered the world by means of a
true incarnation that he might make men sharers in the divine nature; though
rich, he became poor for our sake, that by his poverty we might become rich (2
Cor. 8:9). (Ad Gentes Divinitus, from Vatican Council II - The
Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, General Editor, Austin Flannery, O.
P., New Revised Edition 1992, p. 815.)
The
New Catechism
The
Word became flesh to make us “partakers
of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of
God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the
Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the
Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of
God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that
he, made man, might make men gods.” (Catechism
of the Catholic Church, 1994 edition, p. 116.)
Catechism of the Catholic Church
[The following quotes are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, provided via the official Vatican website: link.]
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers
of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word
became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering
into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a
son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we
might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God,
wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he,
made man, might make men gods."81
[Footnotes:
#78 – 2 Pet 1:4; #79 – St.
Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3,19,1: PG 7/1, 939; #80 – St. Athanasius, De
inc., 54,3: PG 25, 192B; #81 – St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57: 1-4 ]
1023 Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are
perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for
they "see him as he is," face to face:596
By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.597
[Footnote #597 – Benedict
XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000: cf. LG 49]
1721 God put us in the world to know, to love, and to
serve him, and so to come to paradise. Beatitude makes us "partakers of
the divine nature" and of eternal life.21 With beatitude, man
enters into the glory of Christ22 and into the joy of the
Trinitarian life.
[Footnotes: #21 – 2 Pet
1:4; Jn 17:3; #22 – Cf. Rom 8:18 ]
1726 The Beatitudes teach us the final end to which God
calls us: the Kingdom, the vision of God, participation in the divine nature,
eternal life, filiation, rest in God.
1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological
virtues, which adapt man's faculties for participation in the divine nature:76
for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to
live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God
for their origin, motive, and object.
[Footnote #76 – 2 Pet 1:14
]
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part
in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a
new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto
the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
[Footnotes: #36 – Cf. 1
Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; #37 – St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1,24: PG
26, 585 and 588 ]
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God
makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal
it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying
grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of
sanctification:48
And
lastly, I must mention a recent book of collected essays by Catholic authors
concerning the doctrine of deification:
Grace
and peace,
David
Hi Dave.
ReplyDeleteTwenty years ago, I remember dialoguing with Mormons who would be surprised that as a Catholic I would not back away from what they called deification. For some reason, they seemed to want to accuse Roman Catholics of deemphasizing the doctrine.
Yesterday you wrote: "There is no question that the EO churches have placed a much greater emphasis on the doctrine of "theosis & divinization" (i.e. deification) than the churches within the Latin/Western tradition."
Okay. Maybe I don't know how much emphasis is enough. It seems like every day at every Mass (Ludwig Ott, St. Joseph Missal) should count for something? Heh. Have there been any Roman popes or cardinals denying that we can be adopted sons of God the Father who wills to exalt us and make us His heirs alongside His only Begotten Son? I think they are at least on board with the Mass of Pius V.
When Roman moral theologians or mystics speak of this, they do not hesitate to affirm the teachings of the Fathers of East and West...even daring to use the term "gods". You could have quoted scores of other highly revered saints and doctors of the Western Church who affirm a doctrine of deification.
I am sure you will note that I didn't say "the" doctrine. That is because depending on where you start with God, deification is greater or lesser.
What great thing is it if Mormons believe in a deification that makes one partake of a "divine nature" that isn't even omnipotent? Roman Catholics draw a line when it comes to participation in the divine nature that makes adopted sons, less than the Only Begotten Son, Who was Uncreated, and of course less than the Father, from whom His Only Begotten Son received His Divinity. Nevertheless, the very Angels envy us because of the privileges given to man, because the Son became a Man, and calls Himself, the Son of Man, willing to give us a participation in the Nature that He received.
There is no question that the West teaches degrees of exaltation. We do not become the Most High. Are we for this to be accused of diminishing deification? If the East says that the deified are equal with God and in possession of all the omnis and have become uncreated then yes, I am happy to admit that the East gives more emphasis to deification. I doubt that they teach that. If they do. Fine. They win "the prize" for teaching some extreme form of deification that is incompatible with the faith revealed to the Apostles.
And as for my LDS friends, the starting point isn't the same God. Who is more exalted, the adopted son of the omnipotent and immaterial God of the neo-Platonists (as some of them would have it), or the absolute equally exalted natural son of a material God who is the same species as the material creatures of earth, and who has material limitations? I don't think Roman Catholics fall behind the Orthodox, and if we do, too bad for them. I know we don't fall behind the LDS.
I don't know who else talks about any kind of deification besides those three.
Rory
Hi Rory,
ReplyDeleteThanks much for taking the time to respond. You wrote:
==Twenty years ago, I remember dialoguing with Mormons who would be surprised that as a Catholic I would not back away from what they called deification. For some reason, they seemed to want to accuse Roman Catholics of deemphasizing the doctrine.==
It has been my experience, that many Catholics (most?) don't know what the Church has actually taught on this important doctrine; and this true, even concerning some RCC apologists who should know better.
==Yesterday you wrote: "There is no question that the EO churches have placed a much greater emphasis on the doctrine of "theosis & divinization" (i.e. deification) than the churches within the Latin/Western tradition."
Okay. Maybe I don't know how much emphasis is enough. It seems like every day at every Mass (Ludwig Ott, St. Joseph Missal) should count for something? Heh. Have there been any Roman popes or cardinals denying that we can be adopted sons of God the Father who wills to exalt us and make us His heirs alongside His only Begotten Son? I think they are at least on board with the Mass of Pius V.==
One can add Augustine and Aquinas to the list who have taught the doctrine. Further, I know of no Pope who has denied the doctrine. However, with that said, it is rare to find Catholics who emphasize the doctrine to the extent that a number of EO theologians have. For many EO folk, deification primary focus of their overall soteriology—I do not think the same can be said for the vast majority of Catholics.
==When Roman moral theologians or mystics speak of this, they do not hesitate to affirm the teachings of the Fathers of East and West...even daring to use the term "gods". You could have quoted scores of other highly revered saints and doctors of the Western Church who affirm a doctrine of deification.==
I would greatly appreciate further quotes from your pen when you have the time to post them.
==I am sure you will note that I didn't say "the" doctrine. That is because depending on where you start with God, deification is greater or lesser.
What great thing is it if Mormons believe in a deification that makes one partake of a "divine nature" that isn't even omnipotent?==
Mormons are divided amongst themselves as to what 'omnipotence' means. The most important chasm between the Gods of Mormonism and the God of Catholicism for me is that the Gods of Mormonism are not the only uncreated realities in the universe/world of existence.
==And as for my LDS friends, the starting point isn't the same God.==
Exactly, and that is where dialogue between Catholics and Mormons should begin.
==Who is more exalted, the adopted son of the omnipotent and immaterial God of the neo-Platonists (as some of them would have it), or the absolute equally exalted natural son of a material God who is the same species as the material creatures of earth, and who has material limitations?==
Excellent question. I personally, would say it is the former.
==I don't think Roman Catholics fall behind the Orthodox, and if we do, too bad for them. I know we don't fall behind the LDS.==
What do you mean by, "fall behind the Orthodox"?
==I don't know who else talks about any kind of deification besides those three.==
A few Anglicans...
Grace and peace,
David
Hi again Dave.
ReplyDeleteDavid
It has been my experience, that many Catholics (most?) don't know what the Church has actually taught on this important doctrine; and this true, even concerning some RCC apologists who should know better.
Rory
Do you think that the ordinary Greek and Russian Orthodox in the pew are much more familiar with this fantastic doctrine than their western counterparts?
David...it is rare to find Catholics who emphasize the doctrine to the extent that a number of EO theologians have. For many EO folk, deification primary focus of their overall soteriology—I do not think the same can be said for the vast majority of Catholics.
Rory
I tend to think we use different language. Perhaps we less often speak of becoming "gods". To speak of the Beatific Vision is to speak of deification and we certainly speak of that. It is not in man's nature to be able to apprehend God in His essence. We are taught that God must elevate our natures, and indeed give us a share of His if we are to see Him "face to face", as Moses desired and as St. John promises. Matthias Scheeben explains:
"The immediate intuition of God in His very essence is in itself natural and proper only to the three persons who possess the divine nature. If the creature is to be elevated to such power, he also must be made to share in the divine nature by a communication of the divine light, in which alone the divine essence can be rendered visible." (The Mysteries of Christianity, B. Herder Book Co. 1946, p. 659)
But I believe it is well understood by attentive listeners of parish sermons and adult catechisms that the end of our salvation begins with a condescension of God to take our nature so that it may end as He when He share His with us. A further aspect of deification that cannot be overemphasized is that it begins in this mortal life. Eternal life (God's life) begins with Baptism and continues in us and grows by means of actual and sacramental graces. We can do nothing pleasing to God without a participation in the life of God and this has been plainly taught where I go to Mass.
The faithful who understand the life of grace as it works in their souls might be at a loss to follow the way our own mystical theologians describe deification. But for practical purposes deification is frequently preached to us and sometimes even using terms like divinization and deification, albeit carefully and with precision.
The Incarnation of God and the elevation of His creature are stupendous, fantastic truths that makes one feel at a loss for words or deeds. We could never deserve this. So what can we do? It makes the Christian love God for loving us. Without these truths advancement in sanctity would seem impossible. These truths are central to the very Gospel. Where the Good News is preached and practiced these truths necessarily permeate our being to the core. By grace, reflection on these truths will help us obey our good God. Reflection on these truths will help us by grace to praise Him and even to dare to call Him Our Father. The reasonable response to these truths is willingness to die for them.
I alluded in my first post to the fact that Catholics cannot believe in unlimited deification. What we get through "partaking" is absolutely beyond what we can even imagine anyway. But I fear that there are some who would pooh pooh "limited deification". I am sure LDS would disapprove. But what of the Orthodox? Surely they don't speculate that we become very God of very God, elevated to the status of the Blessed Trinity?
Maybe over the weekend I can defend why we place limits. Thanks for your consideration Dave. I have about eight years of sermons to try to find some good stuff for you to hear. I am going to start listening to them at work and then I'll give you some quotes from Sunday sermons.
Later.
Hi Rory,
ReplyDeleteThanks much for your thoughtful response to my last combox post. You asked:
==Do you think that the ordinary Greek and Russian Orthodox in the pew are much more familiar with this fantastic doctrine than their western counterparts? ==
I can't answer that with any confidence due to the fact I have never attended an EO congregation, nor I have I had any face-to-face dialogue with EO lay folk. My knowledge of EO thought has come from two sources: books and articles by EO theologians, and dialogue with EO apologists online.
You also wrote:
==I alluded in my first post to the fact that Catholics cannot believe in unlimited deification.==
I think there is some truth to the above; and yet, one should not discount the following:
>>What we cannot claim by right, the infinite liberality of God gives us in grace. Although we are not by nature the children of God, we become such through grace, and so true is this that, as adopted children, we are put on par with the natural Son of God. We become by grace what He is by nature. What He has in Himself, that we obtain through participation in His nature. (Matthis J. Scheeben, The Glories of Divine Grace, Tan Books, 2000, p. 96.)>>
==What we get through "partaking" is absolutely beyond what we can even imagine anyway. But I fear that there are some who would pooh pooh "limited deification". I am sure LDS would disapprove. But what of the Orthodox? Surely they don't speculate that we become very God of very God, elevated to the status of the Blessed Trinity? ==
From what I have read, Catholic theologians (and official doctrine) go further than their EO counterparts concerning deification. While Catholics believe that redeemed mankind will participate in the very essence of God, the EO folk limit this participation to God's "energies".
Thanks again for your thoughtful insights...
Grace and peace,
David
Hi Dave,
ReplyDeleteScheeben himself makes a comment on p. 100 of the same book that you quoted which alludes to the important distinction that prevents anyone from ever claiming that the glorified in a Catholic heaven results in polytheism. First the quote from p. 96 as cited by you:
"We become by grace what He is by nature. What He has in Himself, that we obtain through participation in His nature." (Matthis J. Scheeben, The Glories of Divine Grace, Tan Books, 2000, p. 96.)
Then from p. 100:
"Now the only-begotten Son has the Divine Nature entirely in His being; we, on the other hand, have it only in those perfections that can be communicated to creatures. Our supernatural birth is exceedingly different from the divine because as St. Athanasius says, first we are born and then only reborn of God; whereas, the only-begotten Son, through His divine birth receives His being and the same substance as the Father." (p. 100, op. cit.)
Other authors of the spiritual life, taking their lessons from St. Thomas, emphasize that by grace our participation in the divine nature is accidental, whereas for Christ it is substantial. This accounts for why Scheeben alludes to perfections which "can be communicated to creatures." This would of course be opposed to those perfections which cannot be communicated to creatures.
Happy Saturday Rory,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Scheeben that there are limits concerning the deification of redeemed mankind. However, given the fact that God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, I remain 'open' concerning the extent of this said deification.
Hope you have a great weekend. Go Ducks and Zags !!!
David
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteJust a disclaimer prior to my comments. I was raised a Catholic & currently attend a High Anglican church & a Chrisitan meditation group populated by Catholics.
Both Rory & yourself have highlighted some good points showing there is a vein in Catholicism that understands deification.
In regards to the Eastern view of deification, from what I've read, they believe we participate in Gods "Energetic" nature not in the life of the Trinity itself, which would make us as divine as the Trinity is. This I think is correct.
Although Catholicism has a good understanding of deification, it seems to remain in the background. I think a lot of the monastic orders like the Carmelites, have a pretty good practical grasp on "being changed into His image.
However the point I was making was to show that a different emphasis in the Western vs Eastern wing of the church, results in a difference in how salvation is "worked out". In the East there seems to be a lot more emphasis in "getting your heart right". Whereas in the West it seems more like getting your dogmas right (although that seems to be changing in some quarters & depends on a variety of factors).
My parent's Catholicism of the 50s' seemed to be to "tick all the right boxes", do good, go to church, obey the rules, but their heart wasn't in it. It seems that although the vicarious atonement was a "known thing", it had no real meaning connected to an individual. It was sort of like, Christ forgave us so that now we can live morally upright lives with eachother & not get toasted by God at the end. There was no meaningful connection to destroying our own personal sin & giving us power to be transformed. I must say though that some of my meditation partners have this heartfelt "knowledge".
Whereas in the East the emphasis is that we are saved so that we can have our nature restored to what it should be and be transformed into God's image. The emphasis is on healing our diseased and sinful nature.
This sounds good, but I've met a few Greek Orthodox who don't seem to have a "pious" lifestyle, which indicates they don't understand this or it isn't emphasised in their parish.
There is one further problem that sits between these 2 and that is faith. It seems to me that in a lot of cases faith is taken as a "given" because of baptism. Just because congregants are baptised, there is an assumption that faith is automatic and that they will automatically understand the implications of following Christ through the Church. This is the "elephant in the room", because without real faith, it is impossible to please God or to understand Him.
So with faith, one can understand the need of vicarious atonement & "theosis" and allow God's Spirit to do His work. Without it, one falls into dogma which causes the church to overshadow the full manifest work of Christ in His divinity & humanity to save us. The emphasis goes to rules & methods rather than the inner heart. And I think this explains why many monastic communities have fallen & glossed over the paedophile religious.
So the church should have a good look at patristics again (I think this is happening in some quarters) and re-assess theology in the vein of TF Torrance.
Cheers
Dennis
Hi Dennis,
ReplyDeleteThanks much for taking the time to comment. There is a lot of 'meat' in your post, but I would first like to touch on your current church affiliation. I have a deep respect for conservative, High Anglican folk. I think they retain a healthy balance between Scripture and Tradition. However, with that said, it is difficult for me to discount Newman's in depth critiques of his former church. His two volume, Certain Difficulties Felt By Anglicans (LINK), is a must read IMO.
Moving on, you wrote:
==In regards to the Eastern view of deification, from what I've read, they believe we participate in Gods "Energetic" nature not in the life of the Trinity itself, which would make us as divine as the Trinity is. This I think is correct.==
I posted the following in this thread to something Rory wrote:
>>From what I have read, Catholic theologians (and official doctrine) go further than their EO counterparts concerning deification. While Catholics believe that redeemed mankind will participate in the very essence of God, the EO folk limit this participation to God's "energies".>>
I 'struggle' with the EO distinction between God's essence and energies, especially as it relates to the 'Beatific Vision'. The Catholic teaching on this issue is that redeemed mankind will see God in His essence, whilst the EO deny this, relegating the vision to God's energetic 'light'. I think Scripture teaches the former.
You also said:
==In the East there seems to be a lot more emphasis in "getting your heart right". Whereas in the West it seems more like getting your dogmas right (although that seems to be changing in some quarters & depends on a variety of factors).==
I think there is a lot truth to the above assessment; but with that said, there exists a good number of Catholics works that reflect on the need to live a Godly, saintly life.
==There is one further problem that sits between these 2 and that is faith. It seems to me that in a lot of cases faith is taken as a "given" because of baptism. Just because congregants are baptised, there is an assumption that faith is automatic and that they will automatically understand the implications of following Christ through the Church. This is the "elephant in the room", because without real faith, it is impossible to please God or to understand Him.==
Well put. Interestingly enough, in a recent phone conversation with Rory, he pointed out the writings of a 19th century Catholic who had some stern warnings against baptizing those who have not given full assent essential Christian truths, and the willingness to live according to those truths. (I hope Rory sees this comment, and shares some of his thoughts on this issue.)
==So with faith, one can understand the need of vicarious atonement & "theosis" and allow God's Spirit to do His work. Without it, one falls into dogma which causes the church to overshadow the full manifest work of Christ in His divinity & humanity to save us. The emphasis goes to rules & methods rather than the inner heart. And I think this explains why many monastic communities have fallen & glossed over the paedophile religious.==
Excellent points Dennis, though I could use some further clarification on what/who constitutes, "the paedophile religious."
==So the church should have a good look at patristics again (I think this is happening in some quarters) and re-assess theology in the vein of TF Torrance.==
Have you seen/read the first two threads under the, Thomas F. Torrance, label?
Grace and peace,
David
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteFirstly a rant alert for readers...
OK, I would love to spend time reading up on some of this stuff, but between a job, IT studies & a family, it is unlikely. I agree I would most likely find lots of holes in Anglicanism along with Newman, however what is the alternative "on the ground" ? Sydney has about 4 high churches (all aging), 1 infected with liberal theology.
IF I went the Orthodox path, I would have to get past the nationalism & exclusivity. Also do they interface with the Aussie community well...I doubt it.
Now I've had some experience with Catholicism. When I was 15 I asked my priest what faith was as I didn't want to go to church out of obligation but because I believed. He gave me a flyer that was so convoluted it confused me. I left & found faith with the Pentecostals...what a ride !
I've just been recently interfacing with Catholicism again. There are some great churches close by with priests that are Vatican 2+. I've found the Carmelites great as well. Now for the downside.
I worked at a Catholic school for a while & noticed they have a good internal pastoral program. I asked what happens when the kids leave school, are there Youth Groups in the churches ? That caused some serious scoffing. Most churches have nothing. Once the kids leave, they're on their own. Pretty discouraging for someone with a 9 yo.
Next looking at the theology & history (& reading your experience with Dave Armstrong), I noticed there is such an insistence on accepting certain dogma, that I can't in good conscience, "go all the way". The way I see it is that even though the RC & EO have Apostolic Succession, to me this was "1 side of the coin" to safeguard the faith. The other was faithful transmission of Apostolic teaching. Most of the heretics in the early church came from the line of "Apostolic Succession". Apostolic teaching comes down not only via the succession of leaders but via the "Vincentian agreement", the Councils, creeds and the baptised faithful.
So when West & East divide over issues like original sin, atonement, purgatory, immaculate conception etc, it seems that Apostolic teaching got skewed somewhere. It wasn't as "air tight" as they make us believe. I'm sure you've read the political controversies at the Ecumenical Councils, the double-dealing, number stacking and violence and one wonders how the Spirit was able to work at all !
On top of that you have extremist monastics as well, not to mention the papacy.
So in the light of this, what can be salvaged as mandatory to the faith ? If Apostolic Succession was "water tight", there would be no divergences in teaching. I think one has to go over the history & recognise the church is like an extension of Israel where each time it falls & fails, God has to call it back to himself and the tradition handed down. Most of what the West & East teach are the deposit of faith I believe, but as there was a "Development of Doctrine" there was also a corruption of doctrine. As time progressed, maybe the enormity of the 1st 3 or 4 Councils were slowly lost & emphasis moved away from the implication of who Christ was to overly technical abstractions (like the last 3 Councils). The requirement for faith gets replaced by adhering to dogmas & "ticking boxes", on one side & taking baptism as the proof of faith, on the other. This ends in legalism coming from any side.
As to the EO theology of energy & essence. I must admit I like it. I haven't read extensively on it, but to me it makes sense that we can only be united in His divine nature to His energies otherwise we would also be a part of the Trinity itself. I think scripture can be used to back this up as whenever there is a revelation of God, man can take "only so much". He can never "look God in the face". What does it mean that the pure in heart will "see God" ? It's one thing to see Him & another to fully comprehend Him or know Him. Does our experience of "growing in God" end in heaven or does it continue because He is eternal ? Can a creature ever be a part of the essence which created it ?
ReplyDeleteAs to the paedophile religious, you can check this report from Australia:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-06/royal-commission-into-child-sexual-abuse-begins-in-sydney/8242600
I'm sure the stats are going to be quite awful around the world. This is another reason I can't trust Catholicism. There is no self-correction. The triumphalism of "infallibility" is a self-poisoning wound. The secular society "blew the cover" on these horrific issues. I can't think of anything worse or more hypocritical. On one hand you have the defense of the unborn only, to rip it away in sexual abuse & then attempt to cover it up.
What I can't understand is how the supposed "spiritual" wing of the church (monastics) can end up being some of the most prevalent abusers. I can understand a handful of backslidden priests, but the numbers are staggering. How can the writings of Benedict, Cassian or St Francis end up being so neglected that this stuff happens ? The stuff of the heart gets overwhelmed by politics & dogma, I think.
OK. Enough ranting. I'll check out you Torrance stuff some time.
Cheers
Dennis
Hi Dennis,
ReplyDeleteThere is an expression that some Roman Catholics use that seems not distant from the Orthodox use of "energies". They refer to the "light of glory", apparently as the means by which we will see God face to face, as St. John speaks about.
"God cannot be grasped by our intellect. We know Him here below by grace, and we shall know Him in Heaven by 'the light of glory', but our knowledge will even then remain imperfect. We shall not fully know the divine essence, or else we would be God."
Abp. Marcel Lefebvre, The Spiritual Life, St Thomas Aquinas Seminary Editions (2014), p. 50
In my opinion there are a lot of apparent differences between East and West, that upon closer analysis, with a view to unite instead of divide, are actually quite similar. I would ask our host David, if in his opinion, there is a significant difference between "the light of glory" in the West as opposed to "the energies of God" in the East.
In both cases, it seems to me that East and West are aware that face to face is an unimaginable privilege from Him Who Is to us who are not. I do not doubt that the East would in some way reconcile their doctrine on the energies of God with St. Peter's "partaking of the divine nature", just as the West does in speaking of the light of glory, while affirming that only God knows God in His fullness.
Do you think it would be okay to stop being so dogmatic about God being "I am Who Am"? I think it would be the destruction of true devotion, and the meekness and humility to which we are called, if it was ever forgotten that God basically told Moses to tell the people of Israel that He Who Exists, with all of its ramifications, was the "name" of the God who sent Moses to them.
According to the author I quoted above, the revealed truths about God are essential to growth in holiness and ultimate union with God. This is why the saints "tick boxes", In another place he quotes the following:
"The reason why the knowledge of God is the rule of virtue is evident. The perfection of man consists in union with God, his first beginning and his last end. Now Now this union originates in knowledge. The first union with God begins by intelligence. From that follows the union of heart by hope and charity."
Fr. Leonard Lessius (1554-1623), The Names of God and Meditative Summaries of the Divine Perfections, translated by T.J. Campbell, S.J., The America Press, NY, 1912, p.141
Hi Rory,
ReplyDeleteYou may be right that there is some overlap between East &West over God"s energetic light. But in the West, how often is it preached that the end game of salvation is union with God in a transformed nature ? The emphasis seems to be the forgiveness of sins so that one doesn't get "toasted". The East"s approach seems to be a lot more wholistic on account of theosis.
I would rather go with Augustine on knowledge. "Seek not that you understand that you might believe but believe that you might understand". That comes by grace. There is only so much a corrupted intellect may understand of God...
Cheers
Dennis
Hi Dennis,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the 'rant' alert; but IMO, it was unwarranted, for I found your assessments and questions to be cogent and thoughtful. You wrote:
==I agree I would most likely find lots of holes in Anglicanism along with Newman, however what is the alternative "on the ground" ? Sydney has about 4 high churches (all aging), 1 infected with liberal theology.==
Having never lived in Australia, I have virtually no clue as to what the valid ecclesiastical options would be for one who seeks to integrate Scripture, tradition and history with a living, growing, spiritual life. With that said, I cannot help but believe that God will lead you to those options that are best for you and your family. The following words from our Lord comes to mind:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." (Matt. 7:7, 8)
Shall end this post with a bit of a 'rant'. We are living in an age when so many, "call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
In first couple of decades following the Second World War, there was the rise of the "death of God" movement. For awhile, that seemed 'fashionable' to many; but, the utter hopelessness of a world without God eventually took the steam out of that movement.
Today, we are living in an age of what I would term the, "Death of Scripture". Sacred Scripture is becoming marginalized by a number of factors: higher criticism, private interpretation, 'spiritualized' and 'cultural' readings, and wholesale neglect. In my country (the USA), it is a sad commentary when far greater numbers of Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are reading the Scriptures with much greater devotion than Evangelicals and Catholics.
And yet, I can say with high confidence that God has faithfully preserved His Word for us. I also embrace and endorse the promise of our Lord who said:
"That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
I pray that God will lead all those who seek His will to that church...
Grace and peace,
David
Hi Rory,
ReplyDeleteI read the recent posts by Dennis and yourself this morning. As you can see, I have already responded to Dennis; however, since that reply I have been pondering over the following you wrote:
==I would ask our host David, if in his opinion, there is a significant difference between "the light of glory" in the West as opposed to "the energies of God" in the East.==
It has been over a decade since I last read two very important contributions on deification that touch on your question—Aristotle East and West - Metaphysics and the Division of Christendom, by David Bradshaw; and The Ground of Union - Deification in Aquinas and Palamas, by A. N. Williams. After my workout and lunch, I have been rereading portions from the above books. I have come to realize that your question is a much more complex one than it initially appears be; as such, I shall reserve my answer until I have completed a bit more reading and reflection.
BTW, thanks for the quote from Lissius. I was able to find a PDF copy on line which I have downloaded, and plan to read later this week.
Grace and peace,
David
Thanks for your encouraging words David. I too believe that God does guide the church through the Spirit & that HE will "teach us all things". As initially spoken to the Apostles & noting that Jesus prayed for those who would believe through them. This succession of Apostolic teaching exists just as the law existed in a broken & rebellious Israel.
ReplyDeleteAs I live in a time of a "broken & rebellious" church, I hope to be identified with a "remnant" that can identify as much of the handed-down Apostolic teaching as necessary as a "flight path" to salvation.
Cheers
Dennis
Interesting Dennis.
ReplyDeleteNot only did the law continue to exist throughout the Old Testament, but so did the priesthood, and the ordinances prescribed through Moses. The priestly lineage continued uninterrupted through internal corruption and external enemies, from exile to return with two new temples, the last of which Christ Himself referred to as "my Father's house." When our Lord healed lepers He sent them to the priests.
Apostolic succession doesn't necessarily need to end with teaching alone. Should there be no consideration for who has the authority to rule in the kingdom of God? In Hebrews we are admonished to "Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief." (13:17) Who could be the churchmen who all the faithful are obliged to obey today?
Christ made very sure that His disciples knew that He did not come to do away with the law or with the priestly officers that held God's authority from Mosaic times. I understand the reasoning which might make virtuous souls comfortable assuming against the continuing existence on earth of Apostolic authority. But I fear it is a flawed reasoning, that fails to consider how God has worked in the past.
I see no examples of anyone, from Jeroboam to Martin Luther to Joseph Smith who did well to assume that God's authority structure has been lost in the Old Testament or the New Testament Church. In fact, it seems like we might have even greater warrant in our age for a continuity of apostolic authority than did the priests of Levi. Broken and rebellious? In some respects. Gone from the earth? What could destroy it?
We want Apostolic teaching, of course. But maybe we can better hope to find it if we begin to recognize those who have the rule over us? Shortly before His Passion, Christ affirmed that there remained at that time, unworthy men who sat in the seat of Moses. He told his disciples what their attitude should be toward unworthy officers in a seat of true authority: "The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not." (Mt.23:2,3)
Christians have no warrant at all for assuming that the moral integrity or corruption of the officer has any effect on the authority of the office. The same God who established the chair of Moses so firmly seems likely to me to have established the chair of Peter, even more firmly.
Thanks for your consideration.
Rory
Hi Rory,
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with you. I certainly don't believe the church is left with Joe Smith's "warm fuzzy confirmation" feeling. I do put weight on the priestly office. I certainly don't condemn or ridicule Catholicism or Orthodoxy. However as I am a realist, & from my reading of Church history, there seems to be real evidence pointing to divergence in teaching between East & West. To me this points to Apostolic teaching being corrupted somewhere along the line. Otherwise Tradition would be in agreement everywhere.
Also, I am not too sure what emphasis to place on some of the Fathers when they place such high emphasis on church hierarchy. Back in their day the option was either abide fully with the church or the alternative was Gnosticism. Can I transplant their anathemas to the church scenario in the present ?
So I look to the ancient Traditions but also recognise there has been great failures where Councils over turn one another, where politics & pride become involved, etc, where emphasis on dogmas change. Did they always communicate well enough with their adversaries ? (I've read that Nestorius wasn't as Nestorian or the Copts were'nt as Monophysite as they were made out to be).
So in the zeal to protect the church from falling into heresy, did it become too legalistic & therefore rip some of the "heart" out of the faith ? In later history, did it focus too much on abstractions? I would say so & I believe that explains why there has been such catastrophes such as the Inquisition, the Pilgrims driving out the Indians & the latest paedophilia horror.
I think the problem may have been the balance between Scripture & Tradition. Did Scripture lose its "prima" status in some of these episodes or was Tradition adequately validated with the other checks & balances like liturgy handed down or the universal scope of the tradition.
Things from my end don't seem so "black" & "white". But God revealed Himself through a rebellious Israel, that in the end also had a few sects like the Pharisees, Saducees, Samaritans & Essenes.
Cheers
Dennis
Dennis
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with you. I certainly don't believe the church is left with Joe Smith's "warm fuzzy confirmation" feeling. I do put weight on the priestly office. I certainly don't condemn or ridicule Catholicism or Orthodoxy. However as I am a realist, & from my reading of Church history, there seems to be real evidence pointing to divergence in teaching between East & West. To me this points to Apostolic teaching being corrupted somewhere along the line. Otherwise Tradition would be in agreement everywhere.
Rory
We have strayed a bit from deification! Somehow, I think our host will tolerate a little deviation from topic. I have more respect in a fashion for Joseph Smith than you might commonly expect from a Traditional Catholic. I take him and his claims seriously. I believe that humanly speaking he was the founder of a religion that is, whether true or not, most remarkable in many respects. I cannot completely reject "warm fuzzy confirmation". But I agree that among his followers, it is often over emphasized.
You say you "put weight" on the priestly office? Do you hold that there is a valid priesthood now? If the answer is yes, does the priestly office depend upon any kind of authoritative chain?
You seem respectful enough of both Orthodoxy and of my own faith.
Maybe you could highlight the divergences between East and West that trouble you, that seem to you irreconcilable?
If there are irreconcilable differences between East and West, why would this need to mean that both are false? Why assume that both are wrong? For my part, I have already hinted at my position when I talked about the "the light of glory" and the "energies". I tend to think our differences are reconcilable.
Anyway, Dennis, thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post. I need a bit more time to get beyond the first paragraph. Do not feel obliged to respond unless you are so inclined.
Hi Rory,
ReplyDeleteJust 1 further comment before David starts throwing anathemas at me ;)
I believe Catholicism & Orthodoxy have retained the "physical" Apostolic Succession", but it has strayed in some of the emphases of teaching that has come down. Eg In deification, asceticism is the purest method of being transformed. What of the "average Joe" Christian ? They don't get the time to go through the rigours. Also, when is transformation "enough" ? There has to be a point when Christ's vicarious Atonement makes up for the rest of the "sullied soul", where transformation becomes "automatic & imputed", otherwise who could be saved (ie taking purgatory out of the picture)?
A pointer may lie in the Holy Spirit. Maybe the doctrinal impact wasn't developed enough. The Holy Spirit teaches the Apostles, & Jesus breathes the Spirit into the Apostles on His commissioning of them. Maybe the church didn't experientially "wait on the Spirit" enough when formulating some statements of faith. This may explain some of the extremes & failings of some of the Traditions handed down.
Hi Dennis,
ReplyDeleteNo "anathemas" headed your way (grin); but, I would like to share a few thoughts on your last post to Rory. You wrote:
==I believe Catholicism & Orthodoxy have retained the "physical" Apostolic Succession", but it has strayed in some of the emphases of teaching that has come down. Eg In deification, asceticism is the purest method of being transformed. What of the "average Joe" Christian ? They don't get the time to go through the rigours. Also, when is transformation "enough" ?==
I think most non-Catholics (and probably many Catholics) do not appreciate the importance of supernatural grace in the lives of ALL the redeemed Sons of God. Perhaps semantics has a considerable role to play in this, but I suspect a misunderstanding and/or ignorance of Catholic teaching/s on the doctrine of GRACE lies at the root of this issue.
In my opening post of this thread, I referenced a book by G. H. Joyce, The Catholic Doctrine of Grace, which delineates our topic at hand with great clarity (online PDF version HERE).
I know that you have a very busy life, but if you could find the time to explore this book, I think you will find the rewards well worth the effort.
Grace and peace,
David
Hi Dennis.
ReplyDeleteI am glad that although you have misgivings about Orthodox and Catholic dogma, we are agreed regarding the physical apostolic succession, as I think you named it. That is of great importance in this entire question of deification. I would suggest it is more important than doctrinal errors, if indeed there are any. I will try to explain why as briefly as possible.
According to what I have learned since becoming Catholic 22 years ago, deification is not an event, but a process. The first beginnings of everlasting life (deification) takes place with the Sacrament of Baptism, and continues with the other Sacraments. St. Chrysostom says that if we fully accommodated ourselves to the riches that are offered in Holy Communion we should be as "lions breathing fire, having become terrible to the devil."
Every great saint knew that they were an "average Joe", who pleased God according to his or her state in life. Progress in perfection is not only for the monasteries, convents, and clergy. The seed that blossoms in to the Beatific Vision is planted in Baptism for the homemaker and bread winner, for the young people and the elderly. Assuredly, the rigors of the Cross which we are called upon to take up may be vastly different. But no one can claim they "don't get time to go through the rigors."
With all respect, I vigorously deny your apparent understanding of what Catholics at least, are taught that it takes to possess eternal life now and to persevere in it to the end. No one will be able to claim at the Last Day that they lacked opportunity for deification:
"It is not merely an error but a heresy to suppose that a devout life is necessarily banished from the soldier's camp, the merchant's shop, the prince's court, or the domestic hearth. Doubtless that form of devotion which is purely contemplative, monastic and religious, will not accord with their vocations, but there are other forms of devotion suitable to perfect a secular life...Wheresoever we may be, we may and should aim at a life of perfect devotion."
---St. Francis de Sales, (Doctor of the Church), Introduction to the Devout Life, TAN Publishers, 1994, pp. 8 and 9
Rory
I cannot blame you Dennis, for your misunderstanding of the Catholic doctrine. St. Francis, as quoted in my previous post, wastes no time, attacking the same misunderstanding which has befallen Catholics living in the world from the beginning of the Church. The call is repeated again and again to "the average Joe", that if he thinks he has an excuse for being mediocre, he is badly mistaken. It is a heresy for which he will need to give account one day because God delights to sanctify all of creation.
ReplyDeleteThe stars in the sky and the sands on the shore sing God's praises in their less exalted, but perfect ways. How can it be that a creature made in the image of God "does not get the time" to be perfect according to its own place in the hierarchy of being? Does God give a salmon lungs when the perfect salmon swims? Never. It is offensive to think that God would create man in an environment where the majority must never reach perfection. Time is the unique gift that men have in order to reach their own perfection, deification!
The sand and the stars are fixed in their perfections. The angels after one trial are fixed. To man alone it is given the dignity to help perfect himself gradually, by degrees, in cooperation with the graces of God which our faith says falls on every one of His children every moment like a refreshing mist in a dry desert, and in super-abundance when we receive the Sacraments.
Catholics are taught that we must redeem the time to advance in the love of God. Baptized Catholics are adopted children of the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and recipients of the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost.
God made us individuals, and every individual has their own path to their own perfection. There isn't one path of deification, but as many as there are sons and daughters of God. God gives to each of His children "that overcometh", an unique name that no man knows. (Apoc. 2:17)
To ponder this secret which will be shared between God and the soul makes one realize the stupendous privilege that God offers us. It gives one the infallible certainty that whoever I am (for I do not yet know my name!), God loves me. Whatever my defects, I am lovable. Somebody tell my co-workers! On that day when I hope to finally see God, I will also finally see myself, this average Joe (!), and I struggle for words here.
(Sorry for the "stream of consciousness". I am now admittedly thinking "on the go.") Okay. When we finally see Him in His sublimity (glory) and ourselves in our profundity (lowness), it will be enough, to make us marvel forever. We will be deified when amidst the society of heaven, (which is pictured as a banquet), we are all made merry together by the same love of the same good God who condescended to save our souls when we will sing and dance and praise and rejoice in Him and for Him who marvelously raised us up to be eternally partakers of the Divine Nature.
God help me to use the time I have left in Your love and the love of my neighbor because You love my neighbors and my enemies too. Shoot, its the Mosaic Law too! The two great commandments are the means to be deified today! I am getting carried away. I hope I am not embarrassed later. In case you wonder, I have not been drinking. Its too early. I stop.
God bless,
Rory
Dave...
ReplyDeleteA little less important than deification is...
What a day of basketball...Sorry about your boys. Truly. Rebound a missed free throw.
I confess I find myself less enthused with the sons of Phil Knight than I used to be (Dixon and Mariota days). My friend Mel is a great guy, you would like him a lot, except that he influences one against anything Oregon that is not Beaver. He has moved on to baseball now. OSU #1 in the country! I would have pulled for the Ducks against South Carolina. However...against the sons of St. Aloysius??? Nope.
Okay...by now I have had a drink (after First Vespers. Technically Sunday.). Ellie worked at and our son-in-law taught at UNC. They will be back there this Fall again. She likes Duke! He is Italian and doesn't care. Go Bulldogs! I like Mark Few. I hope he gets one. I kind of like the sky blue Tar Heels and Roy Williams, but let them lose to the Papists.
G'nite. Passiontide is upon us.
Rory
Thanks David & Rory. I will try & read some of that book.
ReplyDeleteI found this article on an Orthodox site which "hits the nail on the head" To me this is saying that we try are best in the Spirit to be transformed, but in the end, Christ takes us the rest of the way:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/92345.htm
In His Desert Sojourn
Dennis