tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post6115734167254275927..comments2024-03-21T10:33:24.876-07:00Comments on Articuli Fidei: Mormonism and Margaret Barker - Part 1David Waltzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-91409057666006734782018-07-27T18:01:23.098-07:002018-07-27T18:01:23.098-07:00http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?contributorId=1...http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?contributorId=1051121ezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05457102001220773448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-6615349219016256012014-10-28T18:09:27.675-07:002014-10-28T18:09:27.675-07:00Margarat Barker was friends with my grandpa religi...Margarat Barker was friends with my grandpa religious scholar Eugene Seaich and endorses his work Ancient texts and mormonism The Great mystery https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjADOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.uk%2FEugene-Seaich%2Fe%2FB001JPA76W&ei=9D1QVKfdMYH8yQSx4YLIDQ&usg=AFQjCNFmoS125J-t9t8ynXHtTSG3aAUzVA&sig2=WQkjWsM8I8VRZdVs3y-36w&bvm=bv.78597519,d.aWwezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05457102001220773448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-80335859407900672422007-11-26T14:11:00.000-08:002007-11-26T14:11:00.000-08:00And again, Life on a Plate. You said to me: "Your ...And again, Life on a Plate. You said to me: "Your post belies an unfamiliarity or at least a disregard of the way the Biblical canon was brought about."<BR/><BR/>Okay, that might be fair to a point. How do you think Jesus and His Apostles believed about the canon? Did they encouraged the faithful to have doubts about whether the Church would compile the inspired record according to God's will? I tend to think I am in good company in my alleged unfamiliarity/disregard about the canon. I suppose the New Testament and particularly the Gospels "belies an unfamiliarity or at least a disregard of the way the Biblical canon was brought about." <BR/><BR/>Rory<BR/><BR/>PS: You have to at least give me credit for spelling it with one "n", not "cannon". Heh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-16509986303489029842007-11-26T13:00:00.000-08:002007-11-26T13:00:00.000-08:00Now see how that concept might apply to the Latter...Now see how that concept might apply to the Latter-day Saints and we might be on to something. ;)BHodgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751807169882645742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-49512377285092499142007-11-26T12:55:00.000-08:002007-11-26T12:55:00.000-08:00Hi Life on a Plate. You are correct about the Cath...Hi Life on a Plate. You are correct about the Catholic insistence upon Tradition. <BR/><BR/>I don't think I left "Tradition out of the Catholic mix". I understood myself to be referring to Tradition when I used the following terms and expressions:<BR/><BR/>1) "faithfully handed down and preserved the teachings of Christ and the Apostles" <BR/><BR/>2) "our deposit of revelation"<BR/><BR/>3) "consulted historically how the Apostolic churches interpreted the same canon from the beginning"<BR/><BR/>4) "Apostolic Tradition" <BR/><BR/>5) "the 73 books of the Catholic Church in the light of the practices and teachings of the Apostolic churches"<BR/><BR/>RoryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-33970138442611029552007-11-26T09:12:00.000-08:002007-11-26T09:12:00.000-08:00Additionally, I noticed you left "Tradition" out o...Additionally, I noticed you left "Tradition" out of the Catholic mix, without which the Catholic position really can't get along.BHodgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751807169882645742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-28493622140738484402007-11-26T09:11:00.000-08:002007-11-26T09:11:00.000-08:00Rory: Your post belies an unfamiliarity or at leas...Rory: Your post belies an unfamiliarity or at least a disregard of the way the Biblical canon was brought about.BHodgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751807169882645742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-45971533352904923952007-11-25T19:47:00.000-08:002007-11-25T19:47:00.000-08:00David recounts those beliefs of Barker which in hi...David recounts those beliefs of Barker which in his opinion might be particularly interesting to Latter Day Saints as follows:<BR/><BR/>>>First observation – Barker teaches that Israel’s “First Temple” religion was not monotheistic.<BR/><BR/>Second observation - Barker teaches that Israel’s “First Temple” religion believed in, taught, and worshipped a Mother Goddess.<BR/><BR/>Third - Barker teaches that Israel’s “First Temple” religion believed in and taught the doctrine of deification.<BR/><BR/>Fourth observation – Barker teaches that much of the Bible has corrupted, and many important "other" Scriptures have either been suppressed or lost.<<<BR/><BR/>Regarding the third observation, on deification, I would be surprised if the doctrine that is expressed in the offertory of the Tridentine Mass, "that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His divinity, who has deigned to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ...", was clearly revealed or even implicitly foreshadowed so early as you say Barker suggests. But I would listen to that.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the other three dubious observations, it seems difficult to me to see that Christ and His Apostles could have understood distinctions between so-called first temple and second temple doctrines which would be uncomplimentary to each other. I have heard she calls herself a Methodist. As a daughter of Charles Wesley, Barker does consult the New Testament writers for their views as he would have, right?<BR/><BR/>Also, there seems little evidence to show that Christ and His Apostles were concerned about lost and corrupted Scriptures. Our Lord repeats the words of Abraham to Dives as follows: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead." (Luke 16:31) Did Jesus have problems with Deuteronomy? If not, neither do I.<BR/><BR/>If the Old Testament canon is unreliable before Barker's analysis, does her approach permit confidence in the New Testament, or for Mormons, the Book of Mormon? If the LDS position is bolstered by the idea that the Scriptures they have included in their canon are corrupted, that is fine with me. <BR/><BR/>I do not speak now about Mormons in particular, but non-Catholics who can't leave parts of the Catholic faith alone in general.<BR/>It is not surprising for one who believes that the Catholic Church has faithfully handed down and preserved the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, to learn that those who accuse the Catholic Church of Apostasy do not accept our deposit of revelation. If they did, they would believe as we do. What choice do they have but to say that important inspired teachings have been corrupted or lost? Or that false Scriptures have been added (Protestants)? That message is a tired, soul-destroying, never-ending refrain against the faith that renounces novelty, whose fruits number saints and martyrs going on twenty centuries. <BR/><BR/>The corruption isn't found in so-called lost teachings, but in the vain efforts of those who trick people into following a novel, short-lived, here today, gone tomorrow religion. <BR/><BR/>From the first century, when have "Barkerites" ever accepted the Catholic canon, let alone consulted historically how the Apostolic churches interpreted the same canon from the beginning? Never. They have to find a way to complain about why we won't admit gnostics from Marcion to Barker into the ranks of those who held to Apostolic Tradition. <BR/><BR/>To remain non-Catholic the one who wants to believe something else will convince himself of two prerequisites. First is that the "truth-seeker" need not examine the 73 books of the Catholic Church in the light of the practices and teachings of the Apostolic churches. Secondly he shouldn't permit himself an unbiased examination of the 2,000 year history of the Catholic Church. I have a hunch that anyone who agrees with Barker's observations as cited above has already succeeded in accomplishing those prerequisites.<BR/><BR/>RoryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-69878856232571837262007-11-21T11:53:00.000-08:002007-11-21T11:53:00.000-08:00Thanks for the additional sources.Thanks for the additional sources.BHodgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751807169882645742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-53969464276224981702007-11-21T11:36:00.000-08:002007-11-21T11:36:00.000-08:00Hello again Life,You asked the following:>>Does th...Hello again Life,<BR/><BR/>You asked the following:<BR/><BR/>>>Does the Bahai faith have any interest or teachings regarding ordinances or ritual to your knowledge?>><BR/><BR/>Me: I think it would depend on how one describes “ritual”. Baha’u’llah’s book, <I>The Kitab-i-Aqdas</I> is THE text which spells out the “laws and ordinances” for Bahai’s. I would say that some of the proscribed practices in the book can be termed “ritual”.<BR/><BR/>For an interesting review of book on Babi and Bahai ritual go <A HREF="http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=buck_maceoin_rituals_babism.html" REL="nofollow">HERE</A> .<BR/><BR/><BR/>And if you have the interest, go to this <A HREF="http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?langu=en-US" REL="nofollow">WEBSITE</A> and type “ritual’ in the search engine.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-48359111251619203062007-11-20T11:28:00.000-08:002007-11-20T11:28:00.000-08:00I taught a Bahai woman on my mission in Wisconsin....I taught a Bahai woman on my mission in Wisconsin. She was bright, interesting, and interested, though not in converting. She assented to Joseph Smith being a prophet (I have met several Bahai who have done so). Does the Bahai faith have any interest or teachings regarding ordinances or ritual to your knowledge?BHodgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751807169882645742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-80009954336050327102007-11-20T11:19:00.000-08:002007-11-20T11:19:00.000-08:00Hello Alma and Life,Great comments. I would just l...Hello Alma and Life,<BR/><BR/>Great comments. I would just like to add that Barker is quite brilliant and a delight to read. It is refreshing from my perspective to find Latter-day Saints who can appreciate her writings while recognizing the need to “sift”.<BR/><BR/>In addition to my intense interest in Mormonism, I also have been studying the Bahai in depth for about a decade now. A bit later in my Barker series, I will point out some very interesting parallels between some important elements of Barker’s theology with those in the Bahai teachings.<BR/><BR/>And just briefly, I find some deep, common ground between much of Barker’s theology and the basic theology of the <B>Sophia Perennialists</B>. <BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-15623676096134717772007-11-20T09:00:00.000-08:002007-11-20T09:00:00.000-08:00As Alma mentioned, Barker seems to be somewhat of ...As Alma mentioned, Barker seems to be somewhat of a Universalist in her findings. While it should be recognized that all that glitters is not gold she provides a valuable service to Mormons, almost additionally so because she isn't a Mormon, rather than in spite of it.BHodgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751807169882645742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-73849629780277000002007-11-20T06:51:00.000-08:002007-11-20T06:51:00.000-08:00I think you neglected to mention one of the most a...I think you neglected to mention one of the most astounding facets of Barker's findings: That God is a procreating God and that the angels and humans are his literal children. Her conclusion that the religion of the patriarchs worshipped Javeh as the Son of the Highest is just too good to neglect.<BR/><BR/>When I first began reading her books, I thought she was a closet Mormon; but as I read further, I realized that she didn't have anything with which to measure the validity of competing theologies, so she gives equal weight to everything. If she were to approach it from a perspective that some of what's found in ancient sources might be invalid, she'd then need to find a way to sift out the chaff from the kernels of truth.<BR/><BR/>In her 2005 lecture at the Library of Congress, she noted her surprise that the Book of Mormon taught that the fruit of the tree of life was white--an element she claims wasn't discovered until many years after the Book of Mormon's publication.<BR/><BR/>The parallels are fascinating and provide a milieu for certain elements of the Book of Mormon--such as why Lehi's life was in danger. The Josian Reforms led to the execution of hundreds of priests who offered sacrifices at places other than the temple; and one of Lehi's first acts in the wilderness was to offer sacrifice on an altar. That would have been fatal in Jerusalem.Alma Allredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11724192086426186057noreply@blogger.com