tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post4923453552443044865..comments2024-03-21T10:33:24.876-07:00Comments on Articuli Fidei: Baptismal regeneration and the early Church Fathers: introduction and Justin MartyrDavid Waltzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-70901175577800453152017-12-21T15:08:40.508-08:002017-12-21T15:08:40.508-08:00Hi waka,
Please forgive my tardy response, but I ...Hi waka,<br /><br />Please forgive my tardy response, but I have just returned from a 10 night cruise in the southern Caribbean, and did not check in on my blog until now. On the 13th, you wrote:<br /><br />==I think David you should take a look at Nathan Busientiz book long before luther and maybe put a review out on it.==<br /><br />Will look into the book right after I post this response. <br /><br />I also noticed that you posted a comment on the 18th in the Tertullian thread. Will try to get to it later today, but it may be tomorrow before I do so.<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />David<br />David Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04577758667034909467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-50148540416400042017-12-13T20:22:28.472-08:002017-12-13T20:22:28.472-08:00I think David you should take a look at Nathan Bu...I think David you should take a look at Nathan Busientiz book long before luther and maybe put a review out on it.wakawakwakahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15264808613704582683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-78260202828643933732017-10-21T12:44:03.726-07:002017-10-21T12:44:03.726-07:00Wait you actually have that book? How did you get ...Wait you actually have that book? How did you get your hands on such an absurdly rare and expensivr book? Also aren't the two wroterssupposed to be PhDs in theology and ancient literature? As well as members of a church that believes in baptizing babies.<br /><br />So if its possible could you explain what is wrong with their understanding of Justin martyr and baptism?wakawakwakahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15264808613704582683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-78921730320367430592017-10-21T09:44:32.493-07:002017-10-21T09:44:32.493-07:00Hi waka,
You wrote:
==Well actually I found a fe...Hi waka,<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />==Well actually I found a few who seen to agree with the absurd idea that Justin Martyr did not teach baptismal regeneration heinrich stander and Johannes louw in their book they claim Justin Martyr didn't teach baptismal regeneration.==<br /><br />I have that book (<i>Baptism in the Early Church</i>), and it is a gross misreading of the early Church Fathers.<br /><br />==Also nate Busientiz who asserted every church father taught sola fide.==<br /><br />I had not heard of this gent, so I did a bit of online searching and found Nathan Busentiz, who is an associate professor of theology and Master's Seminary (<a href="https://www.tms.edu/bio/nathanbusenitz/" rel="nofollow">biography</a>).<br /><br />He has an online article with the title: <a href="https://www.tms.edu/preachersandpreaching/sola-scriptura-church-fathers/" rel="nofollow">Sola Scriptura and the Church Fathers</a>.<br /><br />Once again, a gross misreading of the Church Fathers. But, I am not surprised. Nathan is perpetuating the position held by the founder of Master's Seminary—John MacArthur.<br /><br />John MacArthur was one of the contributors in the 1995 book, <a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=IPkHAAAACAAJ&dq=editions:_u5UfCHMII4C&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj54OaVlILXAhVHzFQKHe0YBMwQ6AEIJjAA" rel="nofollow"><i>Sola Scrptura!</i></a>.<br /><br />To my knowledge, not one of the contributors of that book was a Patristics scholar.<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04577758667034909467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-1890644507291094782017-10-20T21:22:31.951-07:002017-10-20T21:22:31.951-07:00Well actually I found a few who seen to agree with...Well actually I found a few who seen to agree with the absurd idea that Justin Martyr did not teach baptismal regeneration heinrich stander and Johannes louw in their book they claim Justin Martyr didn't teach baptismal regeneration. Also nate Busientiz who asserted every church father taught sola fide. wakawakwakahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15264808613704582683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-53628766251158301532014-09-29T22:35:14.997-07:002014-09-29T22:35:14.997-07:00David,
You really gotta check out Tim's latest...David,<br />You really gotta check out Tim's latest article in which he goes on about (St. Francis of Assisi!!! ) endorsing bread worship when he wrote Adoro Te Devote!<br />An anti-Catholic Methodist named Bob switches sides in the comments corrects Tim by saying Transubstantiation saves Catholics from this nasty slur.<br />The failure to identify Aquinas as the writer of the hymn exposes Tim's shoddy scholarship.James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-18348883253498280632014-09-27T08:08:44.609-07:002014-09-27T08:08:44.609-07:00I found this to be a very good treatment of John 3...I found this to be a very good treatment of John 3:5; and he interacts with Lenski.<br /><br />https://www.dbts.edu/journals/1999/McCabe.pdf<br /><br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-44735142930336548712014-09-27T06:34:47.611-07:002014-09-27T06:34:47.611-07:00I MAY type-up all the relevant passages from Lensk...I MAY type-up all the relevant passages from Lenski's commentaries in the future...<br /><br /><i> That would be interesting.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-58567831599954859062014-09-27T06:33:43.362-07:002014-09-27T06:33:43.362-07:00Guy wrote:
"There are several Baptist vs Chur...Guy wrote:<br />"There are several Baptist vs Church of Christ debates on utube in which the Baptists lose every time. "<br /><br /><i> In your opinion the Baptists loose; but we would have to see them to judge if that is really true.</i><br /><br />Although the CofC errs on lot of points, when it comes to the necessity of baptism by precept ( for adults ), they are right.<br /><br /><i> Necessity of baptism for what? (justification?, or proving that one is truly a believer ?, Discipleship?) One who claims to believe in Christ and then stubbornly refuses to be baptised and join a local church is showing that they were not truly justified.<br /><br />Necessity in the process of discipleship and sanctification is different than the belief that being dunked in the water with the name of the Trinity said over them (Matthew 28:19) actually causes the new birth. Water baptism is rather the external symbol of the internal reality of the new birth by the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13; Romans 6:1-6)<br /></i><br /> <br />You might enjoy James White's five day debate with Arminian Steve Gregg too. White gets so flustered he starts sulking and refuses to respond to Gregg who never so much as messes his hair in the debate.<br /><br /><i> I listened to that at the time it happened, as I have listened to almost all of the Dividing Line shows for years. I don't remember thinking, "Dr. White is getting flustered" or your take on it.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-41859247141586968672014-09-23T10:09:05.850-07:002014-09-23T10:09:05.850-07:00Hi Guy (Jim),
When you get the time, could you pr...Hi Guy (Jim),<br /><br />When you get the time, could you provide the links to the debates that you mentioned ?<br /><br />As for, "the exegesis of passages that are claimed to teach baptismal regeneration", I would like to recommend Dr. Richard C. H. Lenski's 12 volume NT commentary set. Lenski, a conservative Lutheran scholar, digs deeply into the Greek, but does so in a way that even those who cannot read Greek can understand. <br /><br />He deftly deals with all the passages that teach baptismal regeneration—in their context—with his arguments and exegesis establishing a defense for baptismal regeneration that is quite solid, if not virtually 'bullet-proof'. <br /><br />I MAY type-up all the relevant passages from Lenski's commentaries in the future...<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />David <br />David Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-5823546853442909592014-09-23T05:30:18.030-07:002014-09-23T05:30:18.030-07:00Hi Ken,
You mentioned james White having a good re...Hi Ken,<br />You mentioned james White having a good rebuttal to Baptismal regeneration. Fine. There are several Baptist vs Church of Christ debates on utube in which the Baptists lose every time. Although the CofC errs on lot of points, when it comes to the necessity of baptism by precept ( for adults ), they are right.<br />You might enjoy James White's five day debate with Arminian Steve Gregg too. White gets so flustered he starts sulking and refuses to respond to Gregg who never so much as messes his hair in the debate.James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-15658797003764215832014-09-17T07:50:15.200-07:002014-09-17T07:50:15.200-07:00Other good articles dealing with the exegesis of p...Other good articles dealing with the exegesis of passages that are claimed to teach baptismal regeneration:<br /><br />http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2014/03/baptismal-regeneration-justification.html<br /><br />http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/john-3:5---part-i<br /><br />http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/john-3:5---part-ii<br /><br />http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/acts-2:38<br /><br />http://vintage.aomin.org/NotByWorks.html<br /><br />Justin Martyr seems to agree somewhat, that the person first has to hear, understand, learn, think, repent, believe - "has been illuminated in their understanding" - that the Holy Spirit has made the person alive and new, but that the baptism is the final stage, like a seal. <br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-31871593157982725982014-09-17T07:43:45.429-07:002014-09-17T07:43:45.429-07:00Hi Guy,
I think the Reformed argument against Bapt...Hi Guy,<br />I think the Reformed argument against Baptismal regeneration has more to do with all the verses that say we are saved by grace alone, justified by faith (alone = apart from works or ceremonies or rituals), as in Acts 13:38-39<br /><br />"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified through the Law of Moses."<br /><br />"cleansing their hearts by faith" - Acts 15:9<br /><br />Romans 3:28<br />Romans 4:1-16<br />Ephesians 2:8-9<br />Galatians 2:16<br /><br />Romans 5:1 - "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."<br /><br />John 3:15-16<br />John 5:24 - whoever believes has passed out of judgment into eternal life.<br /><br />1 John 5:12-13<br /><br />Paul clearly differentiates the gospel from baptism - 1 Corinthians chapter 1 - "I was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel" and " I am glad I baptized no one except for . . . " <br /><br />baptism seems to be the external rite and symbol of the spiritual reality of faith and regeneration by the Holy Spirit that has already taken place, and then the person is taught and instructed and then baptized before witnesses in the church that he or she is following the Lord and joining a local church. <br /><br />James White has a good rebuttal of baptismal regeneration. <br /><br />http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2012/12/06/a-brief-rebuttal-of-baptismal-regeneration-vintage/Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-87276901630352755932014-09-16T00:28:57.175-07:002014-09-16T00:28:57.175-07:00David, Rory and Ken,
I love the tid-bit about Wm....David, Rory and Ken,<br /><br />I love the tid-bit about Wm. Webster believing the Fathers on Baptismal regeneration.<br />Since the Reformed argument against baptismal regeneration stems from their views on grace, predestination, limited atonement, etc., I suppose one could cut to the chase and demonstrate the Fathers were not Calvinists and so could not hold to the denial of baptismal regeneration offered by Kauffman.<br />Why do Calvinists dislike B.R.? Because if someone receives grace once and later falls away, their whole understanding of only the elect ever receiving grace crumbles. Yet the idea of OSAS was a 16th century innovation unsupported by scripture and Tradition.<br />James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-23544869814853939982014-09-15T13:57:58.496-07:002014-09-15T13:57:58.496-07:00Hi Ken,
So good to see you back !!!
I am gettin...Hi Ken,<br /><br />So good to see you back !!! <br /><br />I am getting ready for a trip that my wife and I will be heading out on tomorrow morning, so I will not be able to respond at length to your comments until my return (Saturday, the Lord willing.)<br /><br />But, I did notice the following:<br /><br />== In the Bromiley quote, the reference should be John 3:5. I don't know if Bromiley made that mistake or you mis-typed it. Justin quotes John 3:3, not 3:5, but it seems he was referring to 3:5. ==<br /><br />The original reads John 3:3...I agree with you that it should probably be John 3:5.<br /><br />Hope to continue the dialogue upon my return...<br /><br /><br />God bless,<br /><br />David<br />David Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-3774974838667577782014-09-15T11:27:25.520-07:002014-09-15T11:27:25.520-07:00My main point in just linking to the articles was ...My main point in just linking to the articles was that there was finally an analysis of the issue from a Protestant perspective that sees the problem with baptismal regeneration and the contradiction it makes to repentance and faith as the point of justification/initial sanctification. I have not seen anyone else at least try to push back at the baptismal regeneration claims. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-89389563089006217842014-09-15T11:23:33.265-07:002014-09-15T11:23:33.265-07:00In the Bromiley quote, the reference should be Joh...In the Bromiley quote, the reference should be John 3:5. I don't know if Bromiley made that mistake or you mis-typed it. Justin quotes John 3:3, not 3:5, but it seems he was referring to 3:5. <br /><br />Justin seems to me to have not exegeted John 3:5 properly, and from there, the mistake seems to get repeated in church history. But baptism is so closely tied with the point of repentance (Matthew 3, Luke 3, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21); and along with all the external works emphasis of the RC church in history, the true meaning was eclipsed and hidden until the baptist movement.<br /><br />Also, part of Jesus' point to Nicodemus is that just as you did not choose to be born the first time, you don't choose to be born again the second time, the Spirit of God must do His work, and you cannot control Him - John 3:8 - like the wind/breath; and obvious allusion to Ezekiel 36:25-27 and possibly Ezekiel 37 - the dead bones come alive by the preached word, accompanied by the sovereign Spirit making them alive.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-47263869403845829292014-09-15T11:12:25.246-07:002014-09-15T11:12:25.246-07:00Sorry for typos:
You make a big deal that the fut...Sorry for typos:<br /><br />You make a big deal that the future tense is not used, but many times we in English <b>use</b> present tense for future intention/meaning, and the Greek present also has examples of that. Farsi has this also. If you know another language, you can see this. You can see it <b>in</b> English also, "yes, I am coming to your house tonight" - actually means, "Yes, I will come to your house tonight."Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-63850284323233829952014-09-15T11:08:43.148-07:002014-09-15T11:08:43.148-07:00because they who learn these things are illuminate...because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. <br /><br /><br />[But this phrase seems to contradict that - that the illumination takes place before the washing, but the washing / baptism seems to be understood as a kind of a seal, that without it, it is not yet complete. A Baptist can agree that a person who has heard the gospel, repented and believed, will at some point follow the Lord in baptism and joining a local church of Christians. A person who is unwilling to be baptized according to Matthew 28:19 shows that their so called “repentance and faith” is not real and they are not truly converted. Or they were not instructed properly. ]<br /><br />And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, <b>he who is illuminated is washed.</b><br /><br />You make a big deal that the future tense is not used, but many times we in English present tense for future intention/meaning, and the Greek present also has examples of that. Farsi has this also. If you know another language, you can see this. You can see it is English also, "yes, I am coming to your house tonight" - actually means, "Yes, I will come to your house tonight."<br /><br />Overall, Justin seems to treat baptism as the final stage in the process, like a seal. A Baptist can agree with that, as long as the repentance and faith is seen as the point of justification and regeneration, and that water baptism is like a seal and a symbol of internal reality, and part of the obedience that comes after true conversion. Without the follow-through of baptism and joining a local church, one has legitimate grounds for questioning how sincere or real the faith and repentance is. <br /><br />David, also in your list of Protestants who believe in baptismal regeneration, you left out the "Churches of Christ".<br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-26568306303237075992014-09-15T11:01:38.397-07:002014-09-15T11:01:38.397-07:00For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of th...<br />For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they <b>then</b> <br /><br />[emphasis on the repentance and faith first, then the baptism]<br /><br />" receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." John 3:5 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it." Isaiah 1:16-20<br /><br />And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him <b>who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins,</b> <br /><br />[emphasis on decision and choice and repentance, which shows there was a time of hearing the message and learning and wresting with the meaning]<br /><br /> the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness.<br /><br /> And this washing is called illumination, <br /><br />[this phrase seems to agree with what you are saying]<br />Continued<br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-47435969310820008362014-09-15T10:59:31.109-07:002014-09-15T10:59:31.109-07:00Hi David and Guy and Roy,
I used to think Justin M...Hi David and Guy and Roy,<br />I used to think Justin Martyr First Apology 61 was clear for baptismal regeneration, and by the way, William Webster, in his book "The church of Rome at the Bar of History" and other places also believes that baptismal regeneration is the only unanimous belief of the early church fathers, of those issues that divide RCs and Protestants. <br /><br />I can see what you are saying David, but Justin himself seems to be unclear and contradictory with himself, and Tim Kauffman has at least poked enough holes in it as not to be so dogmatic as Ferguson and others as yourself assert.<br /><br />Justin's first Apology 61: (with my comments interspersed) <br />"I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ;. . . "<br /><br /><br /><i> Kauffman emphasizes the aspect of the person "dedicating" themselves to God. (sounds like hearing, learning, repentance and faith first, as is Biblical) It is definitely contrary to infant baptism. "when" can mean generally "at the same time so much that the washing/baptism takes place right after the period of learning and praying, etc. or it can mean "after" or "immediately after". The emphasis later on the person being convinced and having understanding and repenting and praying and fasting before the actual baptism is an emphasis that gives a very baptistic flavor. “when we had been mad new through Christ” – sounds like the being made new comes first, then the dedication is the baptism ceremony in the church or among believers gathered together in a place. (near a river ?, etc,).</i><br /><br />". . . lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. <b>As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then </b><br /> they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. "<br />[I admit this last part sounds like baptismal regeneration.]<br />ContinuedKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-27766963403777469522014-09-14T17:28:25.379-07:002014-09-14T17:28:25.379-07:00Hi Rory,
Thanks much for taking the time to share...Hi Rory,<br /><br />Thanks much for taking the time to share some of your own pre-Catholic studies of the CFs. The following parallels some of my own reflections:<br /><br />== I am not completely baffled as to why Reformed people twist the Fathers to suit their own peculiar beliefs. It is hard to explain why nobody believed what you now do for the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity. At least the Mormons have an explanation for why there is no historical tradition supporting LDS beliefs.==<br /><br />I also appreciated your final paragraph:<br /><br />==Reading these claims, it seems to have gotten to the absurd place where you could do a switcheroo and quote the Council of Trent as though it was Augustine or Athanasius. If the Reformed "historian" thought it came from a Church Father, they would figure out why the Council of Trent disagreed with the Catholic doctrine...of the Council of Trent.==<br /><br />At first glance, it sounds a bit over-the-top, but for those of us who have experience(s) with a number of anti-Catholic Reformed apologists (and I have had plenty), it sure seems to be spot-on—well said.<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />David<br />David Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-33507250236511566412014-09-14T17:26:54.602-07:002014-09-14T17:26:54.602-07:00Hi Guy,
So good of you to drop by and share some ...Hi Guy,<br /><br />So good of you to drop by and share some of your thoughts. I can certainly relate to the following that you posted:<br /><br />== I have a history of being sent on wild goose chases over the fathers by William Webster.==<br /><br />I use to live near Bill. In addition to reading most of his anti-Catholic publications, I had a few personal conversations with him. He was a nice enough guy in person, but it did not take me too long to realize that he was reading the Church Fathers (and the Bible) with such an anti-Catholic bias that it was impossible for him to be objective.<br /><br />But Bill was not just anti-Catholic; ultimately, he became so convinced that his personal interpretation of the Bible (and Church history) was better than pretty much any existing church/denomination, so he started his own church !!!<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />David<br />David Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-33637731495750465212014-09-14T12:20:00.350-07:002014-09-14T12:20:00.350-07:00Hey guy fawkes. Have I seen you over at St. Louis ...Hey guy fawkes. Have I seen you over at St. Louis Catholic? Probably a different "guy". Heh.<br /><br />In the early 90's, I was a former Baptist minister who would have been happy to be kind of a high church Reformed type. I preferred not to believe in a complete apostasy as the Mormons do. I also was open to Catholic claims.<br /><br />It was around that time that the complete series of Church Fathers translated by mostly Anglicans became available through Hendriksen and I bought the whole thing. I read all of the first two or three volumes which featured all the extant writings up to the time of Tertullian. Having done a little thinking about implications of apostasy through Mormon contact, I was sensitive to the need to either follow the course historically that led to continuity, or to be forced into admitting apostasy.<br /><br />There were other factors which played into my eventual conversion to the Catholic faith. But seeing what the early Fathers, with St. Justin Martyr as the earliest Father saying things about things water baptism that sounded like he thought water baptism was salvific. <br /><br />But that's not all. He obviously believed, as opposed to the Calvinist I would have been pleased to be, that each of us through our free wills merit rewards and chastisement: <br /><br />"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments and chastisements, and good rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, <b>unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions,</b> of whatever kind they be." <br /><br />(First Apology, Ch. 43)<br /><br />You still haven't seen what he says about baptism before he contradicts the Reformed guys on freedom of the will. The passage on baptism is at ch. 61. I couldn't think of a way to avoid coming away from that thinking that Justin believed in baptismal regeneration. But Dave has already shown that almost everybody can see the same thing.<br /><br />I then moved on to St. Justin's doctrine of the Eucharist, in ch. 66: <br /><br />"And this food is called amongst us the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ enjoined. <b>For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these</b>; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, <b>so likewise have we been taught that the food which has been blessed by the prayer of His word</b>, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, <b>is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.</b><br /><br />If you want to believe what St. Justin believed, and I did, that seems like a hat trick against being Reformed to me. If Justin was a proto-Calvinist, he had a mighty ineffective of way communicating it. He sure made me think he disagreed with their views on those three critical areas of dispute. I am not completely baffled as to why Reformed people twist the Fathers to suit their own peculiar beliefs. It is hard to explain why nobody believed what you now do for the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity. At least the Mormons have an explanation for why there is no historical tradition supporting LDS beliefs.<br /><br />Reading these claims, it seems to have gotten to the absurd place where you could do a switcheroo and quote the Council of Trent as though it was Augustine or Athanasius. If the Reformed "historian" thought it came from a Church Father, they would figure out why the Council of Trent disagreed with the Catholic doctrine...of the Council of Trent. Roryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17383598087147416757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-44165072712119096982014-09-13T13:16:27.847-07:002014-09-13T13:16:27.847-07:00David,
Thanks for doing the heavy lifting.
I have ...David,<br />Thanks for doing the heavy lifting.<br />I have skimmed kauffman's articles but don't have the patience or interest in doing the work needed to refute him.<br />I have a history of being sent on wild goose chases over the fathers by William Webster. After falling for his slight-of-hand shenanigans, I decided not to bother ever again with Protestant of J.W. claims on the fathers.<br />I am enjoying your efforts though.<br />Thanks.James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.com