tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post4616199578307446121..comments2024-03-21T10:33:24.876-07:00Comments on Articuli Fidei: Some reflections on Tim Kimberly's online Athanasius biographyDavid Waltzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-41049763870579181532020-12-22T00:02:33.142-08:002020-12-22T00:02:33.142-08:00David,
Here is another link I thought you may enj...David,<br /><br />Here is another link I thought you may enjoy, which I found early Tuesday morning as I was researching another article on references to Maximas the Confessor in the CCC:<br /><br />https://www.affcrit.com/archives/ac_02_02.html<br /><br />The link above will take you to a journal issue of affcrit, and the entire issue is dedicated to dedication. I have not read thru all of the content, but it may be of interest to you.<br /><br />Clinton LeFortClinton LeForthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00841169857135737487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-39441006060742014512011-11-14T12:14:59.026-08:002011-11-14T12:14:59.026-08:00Hi Ken,
Thanks for responding; you posted:
==Yes...Hi Ken,<br /><br />Thanks for responding; you posted:<br /><br />==Yes, I remember something about mind and memory in Augustine's analogy.<br /><br />I don't quite understand the label "Psychological" (pertaining to the soul, mind, unseen, thinking, memory ?)==<br /><br />Me: As you know, psychology is the "science of the mind", so I understand the label. One of these days I would like to do some research and try and find out who first used the term to describe this particular aspect of Augustine's take on the Trinity. (BTW, Augustine was also fond of describing the distinctions between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as "relations"; I think Karl Barth picked up on this.)<br /><br /> ==You did not comment further on my comments on the article on Jihad a couple of posts down.==<br /><br />Me: I thought your comments were directed to GV19, so I refrained from commenting. Also, my views on this issue (i.e. Islam, the Qur'an and jihad) have not changed since our last 'round'. In fact, if anything, the two recent scholarly articles referenced in the thread that you are referring to have further solidified my position.<br /><br />==And Kimberly has now put Calvin as the 3rd greatest theologian, so you were right on that.==<br /><br />Me: Yeah, I saw that. Found it a bit interesting that some thought 3rd place was too low...<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-77654643070370283852011-11-13T16:11:27.423-08:002011-11-13T16:11:27.423-08:00Yes, I remember something about mind and memory in...Yes, I remember something about mind and memory in Augustine's analogy.<br /><br />I don't quite understand the label "Psychological" (pertaining to the soul, mind, unseen, thinking, memory ?)<br /><br />I need to look at that again in Augustine.<br /><br />You did not comment further on my comments on the article on Jihad a couple of posts down.<br /><br />And Kimberly has now put Calvin as the 3rd greatest theologian, so you were right on that.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-86283238638554651832011-11-11T10:55:38.412-08:002011-11-11T10:55:38.412-08:00Hi Ken,
Sorry for my somewhat belated response; m...Hi Ken,<br /><br />Sorry for my somewhat belated response; my internet service was down all-day yesterday (they were upgrading the line to my house from copper to fiber-optics). Got service back this morning; it lightening fast now!!! (Well worth the down time.)<br /><br />Yesterday morning, you posted:<br /><br />== What is the "Psychological Model of the Trinity" ?? of Augustine ?==<br /><br />Me: It is where Augustine uses analogies that are directly related to the mind. Off of the top of my head, books IX and X in his <i>On the Trinity</i> are some of the best examples of this model. (See pages 125 - 143 in vol. III of <i>The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers</i> first series.)<br /><br />Karl Rahner in his famous book <i>The Trinity</i> (pages 115 - 120) touches on some of the deficiencies of this model, even though he still retains the Latin/Western view of the Trinity.<br /><br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-63595919255092673852011-11-10T06:40:04.380-08:002011-11-10T06:40:04.380-08:00David,
What is the "Psychological Model of th...David,<br />What is the "Psychological Model of the Trinity" ?? of Augustine ? <br /><br />Do you have specific references so I can find them without having to read though every word of his works. ( I have tried for years, but always give up because of lack of time and the parts that one has to wade through that seem boring and hard to understand. His "City of God" was especially tedious and ponderous and redundant and rambling. I wish someone would condense it to the essence.<br /><br />Lover = Father<br />Beloved = Son<br />Love = Holy Spirit<br /><br />?<br /><br />"God is Love" - I John 4:8<br /><br />Other?<br /><br />I forgot another of Augustine's illustrations of the Trinity - <br /><br />Memory<br />Mind<br />Will <br /><br />?<br />Memory and mind seem the same, but I am sure you can recall easily - I would have to go back and research it a lot.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-42111062435645735742011-11-10T06:31:01.147-08:002011-11-10T06:31:01.147-08:00Luka -
Does your linking to that comedy video inte...Luka -<br />Does your linking to that comedy video intend to communicate that you think all the evidence against Athanasius is "baloney" - false?<br /><br />Do you disagree with all the apparent evidence against Athanasius that David W. has amassed from Hanson and others?<br /><br />I don't like it either, but what can one do in the face of evidence?Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-38311582910901410002011-11-10T06:27:16.962-08:002011-11-10T06:27:16.962-08:00David,
What is the difference between Theosis
an...David,<br />What is the difference between Theosis <br /><br />and<br /><br />glorification ?<br /><br />glorification - I think of as entailing process of sanctification, holiness, and at death or second coming of Chrhist - having a new glorified body in heaven. (Phil. 3:20; I Cor. 15; 2 Cor. 5; I John 3:1-3) <br /><br />in other words - verses about us being changed and made more and more holy and becoming like Jesus in character:<br /><br />"being conformed to the image of Christ" (Romans 8:28-29; Colossians 3:9-10; Ephesians 4:20-24; 2 Cor. 3:16-18; 4:16-18) - being made more and more holy - <br />"partakers of the divine nature" - 2 Peter 1:4<br /><br />"new creatures in Christ" - 2 Cor. 5:17<br /><br />that is, we partake in the communicable attributes of God, not the incommunicable ones (God alone is God, we are children of God by adoption, not by substance)<br /><br />It seems to me, the Protestant Reformed way of expressing those Scriptural truths is better than "becoming gods" or "little gods" , etc.<br /><br />The Theosis language lends itself to misunderstanding.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-86199721912768794572011-11-09T23:15:49.917-08:002011-11-09T23:15:49.917-08:00My scholarly take on the matter...<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q7mjoxHzm4#t=234" rel="nofollow">My</a> scholarly take on the matter...The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-25930300518674650852011-11-09T10:36:52.351-08:002011-11-09T10:36:52.351-08:00Hi Ken,
So good to see you back! Have you been tr...Hi Ken,<br /><br />So good to see you back! Have you been traveling? <br /><br />In your post you wrote:<br /><br />==It is sad to read that Athanasius was not as holy as I thought he was. Oh well; another forgiven sinner, who was imperfect; but one whom I don't doubt is in heaven.<br /><br />Do you think his behavior was worse than Cyril of Alexandria's against Nestorius? There is one that seems really bad - Cyril.==<br /><br />Me: Some of the charges leveled against Athanasius are very troubling, and if true, would suggest that he was willing to engage in behavior that even Cyril avoided. But, with that said, Cyril seemed (given the extant data) to be more consistently 'heavy-handed' concerning his treatment of those who disagreed with him. <br /><br />==One can have sound doctrine but still have bad, sinful habits and behavior.==<br /><br />Me: Agreed.<br /><br />==On the Theosis - that is one of the hardest things to understand as the wording just sound so foreign and strange.<br /><br />Isn't it better to describe it as "glorification" ? ==<br /><br />Me: I think the concept of theosis has some common ground with glorification, but each has important aspects that are unique to themselves.<br /><br />==In theosis, it seems important that they communicate that we are still creatures and God is the creator and over us.==<br /><br />Me: The Son of God, as to his person, is divine, and not human, but he assumed a full human nature without losing his divinity in that process. As I understand deification/theosis, redeemed man is deified (i.e. becomes 'partakers of the divine nature). In that process, the person of a redeemed man remains human, adding, a second nature: divinity. Irenaeus sums it up best (in what scholars term the 'exchange theory'):<br /><br />"...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." (ANF 1.526).<br /><br />==Surely that is what Athanasius meant, right ?==<br /><br />Me: I believe that is correct.<br /><br />==If so, then there is no problem.==<br /><br />Me: I never thought there was (wink).<br /><br />==Are these some of the reasons you don't seem to like Athanasius, and you seem to disagree with him and Augustine on the Trinity.==<br /><br />Me: In terms of Athanasius' doctrine of God, there is not much I disagree with; it was Augustine, not Athanasius, who introduced the 'psychological model' of the Trinity, and with it, what essentially became neo-modalism. <br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-12750806247811414652011-11-08T20:38:54.859-08:002011-11-08T20:38:54.859-08:00It is sad to read that Athanasius was not as holy ...It is sad to read that Athanasius was not as holy as I thought he was. Oh well; another forgiven sinner, who was imperfect; but one whom I don't doubt is in heaven.<br /><br />Do you think his behavior was worse than Cyril of Alexandria's against Nestorius? There is one that seems really bad - Cyril. <br /><br />One can have sound doctrine but still have bad, sinful habits and behavior.<br /><br />On the Theosis - that is one of the hardest things to understand as the wording just sound so foreign and strange.<br /><br />Isn't it better to describe it as "glorification" ? <br /><br />In theosis, it seems important that they communicate that we are still creatures and God is the creator and over us. <br /><br />Surely that is what Athanasius meant, right ? <br /><br />If so, then there is no problem.<br /><br />otherwise, he is still my favorite of the ECF.<br /><br />Are these some of the reasons you don't seem to like Athanasius, and you seem to disagree with him and Augustine on the Trinity.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-61072271514437443782011-11-06T10:56:55.437-08:002011-11-06T10:56:55.437-08:00Hi Drake,
Thanks for the link. Last night before ...Hi Drake,<br /><br />Thanks for the link. Last night before going to sleep, I read through the entire thread, and I am not surprised in the least that you have been TRIBLOGUED !!! It is for a very good reason that I have subtitled the Triablogue blog, "The Black Hole of Christian Blogs"; not much 'light' emanating out there...<br /><br />I have pretty much ceased dialogue with Steve Hays after the following exchange at Beggars All:<br /><br /><a href="http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/07/answering-charge-of-rape-against.html" rel="nofollow">Answering the charge of "rape against the doctrine of God's effectual grace - Part 1</a> (see also the following germane threads: <a href="http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2010/07/rc-sproul-and-holy-rape-of-soul.html" rel="nofollow">R.C. Sproul and "the holy rape of the soul"</a> and <a href="http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2010/07/rc-sproul-if-we-grant-that-god-can-save.html" rel="nofollow">R.C. Sproul: If we grant that God can save men by violating their wills...</a>).<br /><br />Not only was Steve caught lying (more than once), his entire argument turned out to be totally baseless, for one of the most prominent Reformed theologians of our day (R.C. Sproul) used the very terminology that Steve objected to. After be caught with his 'pants down around his ankles', Hays vanished from the scene; no apology was ever offered.<br /><br />Anyway, the above is merely the 'tip of the iceberg' when to comes to Steve Hays' ongoing un-Christian behavior (and just plain silliness).<br /><br />So, even though Steve has made some serious errors in the thread that you linked to, I believe it is counter-productive to engage in dialogue with him on his blog (it always ends up being a huge waste of time).<br /><br />With that said, I am heading out town shortly for the day; I will pray as to whether or not I should type up a new thread pointing out the all too obvious mistakes that Steve made during his dialogue with you and Craig.<br /><br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-18257636329859800632011-11-04T15:56:06.964-07:002011-11-04T15:56:06.964-07:00Steve Hays needs some Tag Team Nicene Action!Steve Hays needs some Tag Team Nicene Action!Drake Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05925446446813424725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-84719325552207645842011-11-04T15:55:30.966-07:002011-11-04T15:55:30.966-07:00David, I could use your help over at http://triabl...David, I could use your help over at http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2011/11/who-made-god.htmlDrake Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05925446446813424725noreply@blogger.com