tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post1792627717556336450..comments2024-03-21T10:33:24.876-07:00Comments on Articuli Fidei: Book of Mormon: support for the 'stone in a hat' translation method from an early, unique sourceDavid Waltzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-76088257187385020802018-04-30T17:29:18.509-07:002018-04-30T17:29:18.509-07:00Hi Tom,
I was hoping that you would find the time...Hi Tom,<br /><br />I was hoping that you would find the time, to share some more of your thoughts on our topic at hand. So good to see you back.<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />==I am not sure if this a good thing or not, but I think one of the currents that drives the “rock in a hat” description is the foe of Mormonism is changing. I think in 1840 there were many folks who found seer stones to be reasonable and so this explanation existed in faithful circles. I think in 1910 there were few LDS who found occult-ish things to be acceptable and they rebelled against it.==<br /><br />Brant Gardner, in his 2011 book, <i>The Gift and Power - Translating the Book of Mormon</i> wrote the following:<br /><br />>>Truman Coe, a Presbyterian minister living among the Saints in Kirtland, Ohio, in 1836, relates the story of the translation as he understood it: "The manner of translation was as wonderful as the discovery. By putting his finger on one of the characters and imploring divine aid, then looking through the Urim and Thummim, he would see the import written in plain English on a screen placed before him. After delivering this to his emanuensi, he would again proceed in the same manner and obtain the meaning of the next character, and so on till he came to the part of the plates which were sealed up.">> (Pages 6, 7)<br /><br />Brant then states the Coe himself did not actually witness the translation of the plates, but probably got his information from the Kirtland Saints that he lived amongst. He then wrote concerning Coe's portrayal of the translation method that, "it provides a picture of the translation that has endured from at least 1836 until modern times." (Page 7)<br /><br />In much later narrations—1870 or later, but by actual witnesses to the translation—two other methods were related. The first being the use of the Urim and Thummim in a hat; and the second, a dark brown stone in a hat. <br /> <br />==I think in 2010 the real enemy of FAITH in God is not Satanic influence, but is radical naturalism where there is no God and no devil.==<br /><br />I would argue (along with folk like C. S. Lewis), that "radical naturalism where there is no God and no devil", is actually a form of Satanic influence.<br /><br />Anyway, though I am a committed, Christian theist, my ecclesiastical agnosticism leaves the actual process of the translation of the Book of Mormon 'open'...<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />David<br />David Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04577758667034909467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-54771225344866562092018-04-29T21:32:06.412-07:002018-04-29T21:32:06.412-07:00Tom said:
"I think Orestas and Oran are two ...Tom said:<br /><br /><i>"I think Orestas and Oran are two more examples of the common trend I see in folks who deal with authority as Protestants. Both of you would be folks who moved in a Catholic direction. Francis Beckwith became a Catholic not long after his work on The New Mormon Challenge. Paul Owen as I recall calls himself a “reformed Catholic” as a product of his interaction with Mormonism."</i><br /><br />Rory replies:<br /><br />Tom, hi. I was recently invited to speak to a Catholic apologetics class on the subject of your church. I am pretty sure I failed to convey how important Mormonism was to my journey to the Catholic faith. Mormon ecclesiology is consistent with apostolic and Catholic ecclesiology. Protestant ecclesiology is a mess. <br /><br />Since I did the same thing, I find it very interesting and believable that prominent converts to the Catholic faith from Protestantism did so after interaction with LDS claims. I am not ashamed to be in theior company. <br /><br />As for my two weeks with the class, comprised of thoughtful Catholic teenagers and young adults, I think I was able to defend LDS claims to the extent that they are more viable than those of Luther or Calvin, the reformers. If the Catholic Church could be safely ignored, as the actions of the "reformers" assumed, what was needed was restoration, not reformation.<br /><br />As you know well, I take the position that the Catholic Church is ignored not safely, but to the peril of souls. But still...Rome or Restoration. If you think the Catholic Church is false, Protestantism, mere reform, won't do. I tried to sew respect for the LDS position. Nobody objected. They listened respectfully, probably because they knew I was only trying to make the Catholic position stronger, even if I was making those whose baptisms Catholics accept weaker.<br /><br />As always...good to see you old friend. Be well.<br /><br />Rory<br /><br />Rory Roryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17383598087147416757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-65555281492761158562018-04-28T17:03:47.500-07:002018-04-28T17:03:47.500-07:00I think I should have said as fewer folks believe ...I think I should have said as fewer folks believe in God, fearing that the CoJCoLDS is the "Synagogue of Satan" is less of a concern and this directs the way people think about evidence.<br />Charity, TOmTOmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06626998094972470679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-65592115255533184602018-04-28T16:56:45.969-07:002018-04-28T16:56:45.969-07:00Hello David and Rory,
I wanted to respond to this ...Hello David and Rory,<br />I wanted to respond to this a while ago, but I am easily side tracked. One of my fantasies is to be able to spill out text onto some computer through a direct link to my mind at rates sufficient to compress weeks of banter into an hour or so. Alas such technology is far away (which is probably good for the Internet and those who would subject to my comments, but still arg!!!).<br />I think Orestas and Oran are two more examples of the common trend I see in folks who deal with authority as Protestants. Both of you would be folks who moved in a Catholic direction. Francis Beckwith became a Catholic not long after his work on The New Mormon Challenge. Paul Owen as I recall calls himself a “reformed Catholic” as a product of his interaction with Mormonism.<br />I suppose as a LDS believer I should speak about translation methods. As I posted earlier, I cannot remember being uncomfortable with the “stone in a hat.” As I came to believe my faith deserved more than a few hours on Sunday, I was immersed in pro and anti arguments. <br />I am not sure if this a good thing or not, but I think one of the currents that drives the “rock in a hat” description is the foe of Mormonism is changing. I think in 1840 there were many folks who found seer stones to be reasonable and so this explanation existed in faithful circles. I think in 1910 there were few LDS who found occult-ish things to be acceptable and they rebelled against it. I think in 2010 the real enemy of FAITH in God is not Satanic influence, but is radical naturalism where there is no God and no devil.<br />If an atheist could see Joseph Smith looking through glowing spectacles and “translating” he could claim some natural explanations. Like those who postulate that Joseph Smith read Josephus, got maps from Dartmouth, and …. But an atheist who sees a simple fellow speak of Nahom and ancient population dynamics while looking into a hat is going to be truly baffled.<br />I am not sure if this is good. I just think it could have something to do with the switch.<br />I am reminded of my criticism of Catholics for telling Mormons, “sure we have revelation” and Protestants, “don’t worry there is no new revelation.” But…<br />Anyway, I almost always read here and it is great!<br />Charity, TOm <br />TOmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06626998094972470679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-42396301177006457832018-04-17T09:44:54.139-07:002018-04-17T09:44:54.139-07:00Hi Rory,
Thanks much for taking the time to share...Hi Rory,<br /><br />Thanks much for taking the time to share some of your thoughts on these intriguing historical events. And thanks for pointing out that, "Brownson resolutely refused to consider a naturalistic explanation for the Book of Mormon as a Catholic." As you well know, I too do not think that a naturalistic explanation is a viable option.<br /><br />I was also surprised that Dr. Grow, "characterized Brownson as a 'liberal Catholic,'", for as you pointed out—during their lifetimes—it was Newman who was considered the liberal concerning the issue of doctrinal development. I suspect that Newman was considered a liberal on this issue because a number of this ideas were novel; though as us moderns look back on that period, we now know that Newman was anything but a liberal.<br /><br />As for Brownson, I know from scholars that after his conversion to Catholicism, a good number of his views became quite conservative, especially concerning cultural and political issues.<br /><br />BTW, did you know that Dr. Grow was awarded his PhD from the University of Notre Dame?<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />David<br />David Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04577758667034909467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3771009444113723863.post-67091162291144352072018-04-16T13:52:29.039-07:002018-04-16T13:52:29.039-07:00Wow. It seems like this thread could go a lot of d...Wow. It seems like this thread could go a lot of directions. It is very interesting to me that Orestes Brownson and Joseph Smith were childhood acquaintances, and that Brownson resolutely refused to consider a naturalistic explanation for the Book of Mormon as a Catholic.<br /><br />I was a little surprised at the LDS author to which the opening thread linked, that characterized Brownson as a "liberal Catholic," as follows: <i>"Brownson carried his taste for controversy into Catholicism, becoming America’s preeminent Catholic liberal by the 1850s, a development bemoaned by his more conservative coreligionists both at home and at Rome."</i><br /><br />In opposition to John Henry Newman and his theory of doctrinal development, it would seem that Brownson would be taking the less liberal of the positions. But perhaps I do not know how he takes Newman to task. I should have thought he simply believed that revelation came through the Apostles more fully developed than what Newman perceived. That is why I thought he would be anything but liberal.<br /><br />Rory Roryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17383598087147416757noreply@blogger.com